chucK

I think it's got more to do with the "condescension" factor. People get to feel better about themselves when they can say, "what total fucking morons! I would never do that." Climbing a mountain is crazy stupid to begin with, then doing it in the winter, etc. etc. Add the righteous indignation of "our taxdollars being spent, blah blah blah" and you've got the genesis of a big story. Once it gets really rolling, there's the potential for the digging reporters to find poignant details like a dying guy calling home to his family, unreachable, doomed, dramatic. Lots of people snowboard and ski and stuff (especially in the winter). It's not as dramatic and there's no assumption of these people brought it on themselves and now it's costing me money.

More feel-good news concerning independent contractors in Iraq and our government's lack of action.

Vantage

Maybe they got the NINJA loans No Income No Job no Assets

good read

...and Harman did object.

I think we are in agreement on this. Ooops no wait. I don't agree with your last paragraph (was it changed via editing? anyways...). Or perhaps I am in agreement though your wording is quite torturous. Not always immoral, but a good thing to outlaw the practice, in all cases, for practical reasons. I agree. But you were calling the democrats immoral? Why? Because they didn't outlaw something they had no power to outlaw, something they weren't even allowed to speak with anyone about? Note that one democrat did object at the time. You seem to be continually discounting this.

Hee hee, good old JayB. "If only the democrats had put a stop to this." If only. If only.

I notice that you have not made a categorical statement on the morality of waterboarding. What has changed between 2002 and 2005 was that (as far as these insiders knew) in the 2002 briefing torture was used judiciously against very specific individuals. By 2005 it was becoming more and more evident that torture was not being used judiciously at all. I have laid out in a few posts now that I think there is a difference between those two. What do you think?

Thanks JayB, That link makes it look like this whole thing is not really about helping the stupid-loan homeowners at all. The amount you owe has to be 97% or more than the value of your home; i.e., it only instructs the banks to work more on the loans in which they'd take a total bath if they foreclosed. The punch line is great, "This is all about getting the homeowners to answer the phone calls from the bank" (who desperately wants to improve their situation getting a five more years of payment out of these people because the collateral is worth less than the loan). So I guess now the way I see it is that this whole thing, is not doing much at all. EXCEPT...it is doing the bad thing that Archy is worried about in terms of sending a signal that irresponsibility has no consequence. Even worse, is that it will have a consequence anyway, just removing the bad press. Sheeesh. Oh well, I was all convinced that the stupid Bush administration was actually doing something sorta right, and I could burnish my non-partisan credentials by arguing as such. No such luck.

H.C. I don't think JayB has made the point that the torture was not evil. Just making the argument that the democrats are the ones at fault. I think JayB is trying to have it both ways. Though he is not willing to condemn the torture, he is condemning those who have not condemned the torture.

If you tweaked your characterization a bit to say: "Waterboarding people who have engaged in or plotted attacks on American soil is regretable but necessary in some cases, while harshly interrogating detainees with little regard to culpability is much more problematic and shouldn't be permissible under any circumstances." , then you'd be able to find a relatively recent post of mine that stated such a position. This is ludicrous. You don't think a perception can change morally when you learn more information? You don't think it's moral to bite your tongue until such point as you have the means to effect a change? But isn't that what you were espousing of the Olympia protesters?

An alternative viewpoint would be that by 2005 it was becoming more and more apparent how widespread the torture was. In your well-focused narrative, you've got the observers back in 2002 being informed about the interrogation of the guy who was apparently well known to have been the mastermind behind 9/11. Do you see any difference between harsh interrogation of someone known to have plotted 9/11 on American soil and a general system of terror where technicians with the impressive credentials of West Virginia National Guard Reserve are instructed to terrorize people picked up near the battlefield in Iraq and Afghanistan, some by bounty hunters because they have a name that matches three or more syllables to someone on the list? Certainly more information came out. Certainly the Democrats got a little more power to influence decision making. I think these are plausible reasons for changing one's stance and strategy, respectively. That said, I do think making too much of the CIA destroying interrogation tapes is unseemly. The tape destruction certainly appears to imply that people are hiding stuff, and I think they should follow that trail where it may lead. But to get all high and mighty about the act in itself of destroying the tapes, does seem like grandstanding.

Have you ever been in a meeting where you can call BS on something but you know nothing good will come of it? How about the meeting where you are unsure of something and don't want to speak up and get everyone hostile before checking something out? The observers here did not have the luxury of going to experts and seeing whether this was legal or not. They couldn't even ask a lawyer to see if they could get put in jail themselves. Addressing your "what if it was only Republicans in the room?" question; back in 2002/3 the Republicans were the ones in power. The ones with a majority in the Conrgress and the Intelligence committee. They could have done something with their objection, maybe. Though it tough to be pro human rights in a law and order debate when everyone is scared of the criminals.

The article says Harman formally protested, which was pretty much all she could do without breaking the law since it was all classified. You wouldn't want her breaking the law would you JayB? These guys could not take notes, could not talk with anyone about what was going on, not even a lawyer to see if it was legal. The relative voices of reason were in the minority, so they couldn't do anything about it in committee. I remember Rockefeller had some deal with respect to FISA where he wrote a letter and kept it in a safe or something objecting to the lack of their abilities to object. Note that one member of the overseers got promoted to CIA chief! Woo hoo.

One thing I've noticed about this rate-freeze bullshit is that it passes the initial sniff test of being a reasonable thing. That is, everybody is bitching about it. Moral high-grounders are pissed, free-marketers are pissed, even nanny-staters are pissed because it doesn't wipe enough people's asses for them. I'm not saying this proves that it's good government, but this "pisses off everyone" criterion usually indicates a reasonable proposal.

So it's sort of a weird mix of "envy/jealousy" (upset at someone else's good fortune) and "shadenfreude" (happy at someone else's misfortune); what do you call being upset that someone else is not suffering as much as they deserve?

I totally feel your pain with respect to people fucking you over by being late. It's really annoying and wastes everybody's time who is punctual. However, I don't think it's that analogous to this "bailout" deal. In the late case, you are being impacted by someone's lack of respect for your time. In this bailout you are not being hurt. This is a voluntary deal with the security holder peoples. I'm sure the only reason they are agreeing is that they are at risk to lose even more money if they don't band together like this. Thus, I think that even if you are a security holder (the only people I can think of possibly directly hurt by this deal) there is reason to do this. There is no tax money going into this bailout, a la SoCal fire thing you bitched about previously, or Chrysler in 79 for a couple of examples. You are not being hurt here. It's seems like the main emotion going on could possibly be merely envy, getting pissed off that someone else is being helped even though they don't deserve it.

Sound familiar? Washington post article: Those Who Avoided Risk Call Plan A Raw Deal

Helluva of a curveball Rob and Cassie! We had a mishap in Thailand and the medical care there was great. I hope you guys are having a similar experience. Here's wishes to a speedy and complete recovery for Rob and for Cassie keeping the family running smoothly when far from home.

DPS, Did you approach and descend via the Middle Fork Cascade River? If not, I think you must be turned around in your directions a bit. See map below. Up is North.

Q: Why don't you want to ship? If A: it takes too damn long. Then I think your only option is Dave Page. If A: I don't want to pay shipping. Then bring your shoes to Vertical World (and pick 'em up when done). They send big batches off to Ramuta periodically. Takes a while, but you get a good job and don't have to pay extra for shipping.

The blow by blow

Hey Fairweather, HC and Tvash are not the same person. Your chain is being pulled. So could you lay off on the ass-kicking threats now please. Thanks.

What was really cool about these "punk" bands of the 80's was the DIY thing. They put out their own records and got 'em heard. Broke the stranglehold of the major labels (until the majors figured it out and bought all the shit out again). It was fun there for a while. Seems like it should be much easier now to do some DIY music distribution with mp3's and such. Though maybe it's too easy now. One problem with the DIY stuff in the 80's was that there were some real gems but you had to sift through a bunch of total crap too. Now there's probably a ton more crap to sift through.