chucK

You think that's maybe because of the lieback factor?

Whoa talk about old skool! Songs about trains and TB!

Point number one. How expensive is it really? Some of you with helicopter approach experience (MattP, Caveman, Dru, AlpineK, others..?) what's a typical bill? Point number two: "encouraging a little more responsibility" is a totally ridiculous statement if you think about it for about 20 seconds. I'm sure that getting hurt, breaking bones, getting lost, DYING, are not adequately discouraging, but add a 1000$ bill to it and that would be enough to tip the balance? Noone consciously sets out with the helo in their backup plan.

Then it might be possible that one or two would show up to your meeting eh? Just a thought.

Real basic like cause I wanna go to bed... Stoppers and hexes are chunks of metal strung on a cord or wire. You put the chunk behind a constriction in a crack, then attach the rope to the cord or wire. The "chunks" are shaped so they actually hold pretty well even behind some types of very slight constrictions. Cams are more complicated, but they are also placed in cracks. They push out on the sides of the crack to hold themselves in the crack, so they'll work for parallel-sided cracks. I'll bet you can find some good pictorial examples or at least better descriptions on the web. Tradgirl.com might be a good place to start. Time for .

Found this cool trip report today on rec.climbing. Check it out. It's a good read about someone's desire to send a difficult heady route. Something tells me that were there a few more bolts placed on this route it would be a whole different story, or there wouldn't even be a story.

Not really so . They are doing this on the Middle Fork of the Snoqualmie River. They're removing the road because it makes it too easy to get in there.

Yeah man KICKS ASS on "Muir on Saturday"

Thank God! I thought he'd never leave.

Alright! We won't have to see that stupid crow for a whole week!

This is the biggest piece of shit argument that pro-bolters throw around. It's particularly dangerous because it can be used to justify ANY bolt anywhere. "Just skip the clip, dude" misses the whole point. It demonstrates that the user of this maxim has no idea of what he is taking away from climbers when he places a bolt. (This, by the way, is the main reason I am arguing with you. I think you are advocating taking something away from some climbers, but you don't even understand what you are taking away.) Here is why "just skip the clips" is a non-starter. A route is bold because it is committing. If someone admires a route because it is bold, the committment is probably what they are admiring. If bolts are placed on such a route, it will lose it boldness, because just telling yourself you won't clip the bolts does not remove the committment. At any point, no matter what you told yourself before you started, you may wuss out and clip the bolt. You have the option. You are NOT committed. Thus the route is no longer bold. Does this make sense? Did I write that? I don't think I did. Your comments disparaging toproping versus leading demonstrate that you value at least some risk. Where is this coming from? I never said I was bold. I never said you were a coward. I do get the impression from your comments that among the things you value in a particular climb, commitment/risk are not are not at the top of the list. Do you think a bolt or two should be added to your line on Shuksan?

Not that it probably makes any difference anymore (since conditions may be completely changed by now), but the snow was good walking stuff (with crampons perhaps). It was mostly hard enough to walk right on top of, even in the direct sun. I wasn't able to kick steps with my approach shoes . This was a fun obstacle

Holy topic generator Mattman! I think we could discuss each of these individually in the long dreary days ahead. Beats arguing over how we value TR's or other such "CC.com on CC.com" topics. It might be fun and slanderous to rate some existing routes by these criteria too. But perhaps it could wait until Monday . Another topic 6. FA ethic. Does it still prevail? Is it really our only hope in terms of a final arbitration in bolting disputes?

Here's a pretty good TR. I find them valuable. I like the one-liners too. Though the TRs are better for getting STOKE and for long boring periods at work. The one-liners are better for short bursts of ADD induced procrastination at work. This place is never going to change significantly, and if it does, it will be a different place . People who actually post realize that a bit of a thick skin is in order. We're probably getting as many TR's as we ever will. I've decided to quit bitching about people bitching about TR's. If you really feel strongly about people not being an ass to someone sending in a TR, then just take on the fight each time and flame the dickhead. That will usually draw the fire away from the newbie poster AND make them feel that his/her TR was appreciated by someone. Plus, it'll give you a good excuse to righteously flame, sort of like Clint, Charles Bronson or Popeye . "that's all I can stands and I can't stands no more!"

And Holy CRAP!! Now we're not even allowed to complain about a route we don't like. I brought my example up to counter your bogus assertion that there were no overbolted routes in Washington. Now you imply that I was an idiot for even getting on them in the first place?! Another sound debating tactic. For a while there I was definitely digging the absence of poinltess anti-clean-climbing tirades on this thread. Sorry JB, some of us just aren't as good as you at sniffing out those gay bars.

Set a strawman up, knock a strawman down, set a strawman up, knock a strawman dow...hey wait you actually just set them up in this post! I think some people on this board have reasonable gripes versus some bolts. This thread was a pretty fun way to talk about them. Making up over-the-top bogus examples to mischaracterize others doesn't help much though. Did anybody talk about escalators up El Cap yet? Once again I see you here as the one that doesn't want to discuss things in a reasonable manner, much more than new and improved JKassidy/Pope/Dwayner.

Chair Peak 11/13/03

Awesome! Nice job Darin. Do it. Put it on your webpage instead of here. You can keep the pictures big too maybe. Post a link, or not.

Suppose you were climbing on the head of a pin. The only good protection at the "belay" and for 20 feet above is a 4" crack and you only have 1 piece that will work (#4 Camalot). Where do you place the piece?

See! Even you are implying distaste toward Bush the lesser! Why don't all you Repubs get someone on the ticket that you can truthfully support? Selling your soul (and our country) just so the GOP can hold the Oval Office just ain't right.

Your choice Dru, it could anybody in DEVO.

This is the kind of shit that keeps America strong!

Purple TCU lower pocket above the mantle-ledge City Park p2.

Has anybody noticed the marked dropoff in pro-Bush posters? These politcal spray threads are almost completely filled with anti-bushies preaching to the choir. Must be the crap lately is getting a little too crappy for all but the most stupid Bush lovers. What I don't get is how in hell can anybody say the fact that Bush didn't know he's lying is a reasonable defense? If Bush is told what to do by his "people" to this extent, then who is running the country? His "people" obviously. So, by voting Bush in, you are chosing as leaders of our country Bush's "people", THE ONES THAT ARE SO BLATANTLY LYING TO YOU. Also, to those "moderates" out there who are saying that Gore was a poor choice too: Do you truly believe that we would be in this Iraq mess with Gore running the country?

blue TCU Lizard chimney good luck getting it out