Fast N Lite Packs

[Good2Go]

Thanks for setting me straight CF. I should have thought about other peoples viewpoints and just quietly accepted the fisting I got from CIlo. I'll try to be more like you from now on.

[Coldfinger]

Think Kevino tried to politely point out that Graham does not warranty packs made with that fabric as they are not durable.

 

Graham is pretty well respected here as he has successfully built a small business in tough times, despite having to compete with large multinationals (BD, MH, Marmot, Mammut, etc), several of which are in turn owned and further backed capital wise by a Bain Capital type entity, where ALL the competing products (not CCW) are made with cheap overseas labor and Graham's stuff is made locally in the PNW.

 

You were slamming the guy pretty hard, but I guess it shouldn't be a surprise when you got called on that and still cant be chill. Nothing personal but for one don't expect me to stay silent when you have been trolling this thread while also slamming on a good dude.

 

Next time read the disclaimer and why not just chill out for a while, call him and try to work this out. I have found with warranty problems (or anything else) being nice and listening works way better than an ADD spoiled brat attitude.

 

So call him up, be chill and listen!

[Good2Go]

You (and Kevino) got it totally wrong. The Cilo site says no refunds on NWD (not no warranty). Here's the text (my italics):

 

"{All packs made from our Dyneema fabric are not refundable. They are considered final sales. This includes any type of Dyneema: NWD WorkSacks and W/NW Dyneema WorkSacks or even left over woven Dyneema WorkSacks. We will work with our customers to achieve satisfaction, but the nature of the materials in these packs precludes our ability to refund the purchase price."

 

And as for durability, here's what they say about NWD:

 

"Designed for maximum strength with the absolute minimum weight, our Non-Woven Dyneema® fabrics are truly amazing. The 20L NWD® takes our classic leader's pack, drops weight and adds strength. The light weight NWD® material used in this pack can be punctured, but it is incredibly hard to tear. Simply put, you can abuse this pack to your hearts content on an alpine climb and it will keep on going.."

 

Again, I wasn't looking for a refund. I asked for repair or replacement. And, I was totally polite in all my of my dealings with them. They stopped responding after our initial correspondence, so I'm not sure how "being chill and listening" would have helped my cause. They say they'll work with customers to achieve satisfaction. That didn't happen in my case.

 

And, I never slammed anybody personally. Cilo signed its email "CiloGear Ninja". I don't know if that's your buddy Graham and I don't care. My comments are about my experience dealing with a business. I chose Cilo products based on recommendations on this site. In hindsight, I wish somebody would have mentioned that you have to complete their manufacturing process on NWD packs, by fully seam sealing them with SeamGrip. If not, the pack will quickly fall apart under normal use and there will be no warranty. If I had known that, I would not have bought it. Seems to me that should be explicitly stated on the Cilo site (it's not).

 

For posterity, here is the response I got from Cilo on my initial warranty request:

 

Hi Aaron,

 

Thanks for the photos of the pack; they help us understand what's going on with your pack much better. We take any sort of pack malfunctioning very seriously and have had very few complaints about the NWD packs. From the photos, it looks like the seams on the shoulders were not seam sealed after you got the pack. Due to the nature of non-woven dyneema, initial seam sealing is necessary. Because of this, we include seam sealing instructions and a tube of Seam Grip with all new NWD packs. At this point, the best bet would be to place a layer of clear tape over the separated fabric and Seam Grip it into place. That should keep the fabric from separating any more and make the pack last quite a bit longer.

 

CiloGear Ninja

 

As my pictures show, their suggested solution was not a viable.

Edited October 27, 2012 by Good2Go

[genepires]

 

For posterity, here is the response I got from Cilo on my initial warranty request:

 

Hi Aaron,

 

Thanks for the photos of the pack; they help us understand what's going on with your pack much better. We take any sort of pack malfunctioning very seriously and have had very few complaints about the NWD packs. From the photos, it looks like the seams on the shoulders were not seam sealed after you got the pack. Due to the nature of non-woven dyneema, initial seam sealing is necessary. Because of this, we include seam sealing instructions and a tube of Seam Grip with all new NWD packs. At this point, the best bet would be to place a layer of clear tape over the separated fabric and Seam Grip it into place. That should keep the fabric from separating any more and make the pack last quite a bit longer.

 

CiloGear Ninja

 

Their response sounds reasonable. If it came with seam grip and you didn't think it was needed, then it is your fault.

I bought a BD epic tent and was told to seam grip it also. Did I scream about the work I had to do? no. it came with seam grip and I applied it as directed.

Somebody call BD and tell them not to sell a megamid to this guy. Might have to apply some seamgrip. Oh the Horror!

 

[Good2Go]

Let's keep it apples-to-apple, eh? BD recommends seam sealing their tents to make them more waterproof. Their tents won't totally fall apart after a handful of uses if you don't do it, and BD doesn't make it a condition of warranty.

 

The note from Cilo that came along with my pack said seam sealing was RECOMMENDED, not REQUIRED. I chose not to do it because I thought it was about waterproofing (which I didn't care about). It would have been nice to know it was necessary to keep it from falling apart and that it was a condition to warranty coverage.

 

Finally, there was so much degeneration throughout the material that I would have had to coat about 1/2 the pack in SeamGrip to fix the damage. Does that seem reasonable to you after 6 uses? And, if repair was my only option under the warranty, I would normally expect the manufacturer to handle it. I even sent Cilo the pack at my cost, asking for a fresh look and repair or replacement. I have never heard back from them since. I doubt you'd accept the same treatment with a smile Gene.

[kevino]

Good2Go,

 

First off, I agree with you on a couple points. First, the fact that cilogear did not respond to your follow up emails is bad customer service. Second, how the back panel of your 20l worksac came apart is unfortunate, and from mine/other's experience very unique. I agree with you that the pack should have lasted much longer.

 

I consider myself a fairly logical thinker and tend to forgo emotion, so let me ask you these questions:

-Did you ever call cilogear directly? (This is requested on their website, under the link I posted)

-Before sending them your pack, did you discuss with them what you were expecting?

-Did you ask the manufacturer what the seam sealing was for or why they recommend it?

 

I really do think you got a bum deal, which is too bad because my experience has been quite the opposite. I hope some resolution can be made since I know the cilogear ninja's read this site.

[Coldfinger]

Agree with Kevino.

 

Look, just take a deep breath. From the ninjas' perspective I seriously doubt they enjoyed looney tunes paragraph after paragraph. Just try being nice. If you acted toward them as you did before us, I can't blame them at all for ignoring you.

 

Maybe you didnt understand what the limitations of that fabric are. Maybe you got a bad pack. Maybe you are one of those folks who cram shit into a pack real hard cause you're used to that and streched the seams enough to pull the stiching through the fabric. I am not a big fan of Mountain Hardwear's ultralight cordura as i have seen stetched seams and one that blew ( I was nice cause I have a relationship with those folks so the warranty was a piece of cake).

 

The tube was there for a reason, you didn't use it. Start with owning up to that.

 

I for one am not going to read your posts as they are a bit over the top and don't have a whole lot to contribute to this thread. You have taken this thread over. This ain't spray or even small claims court. Think about that.

 

Anyhow, good luck and please keep in mind this is a pretty tight community.

 

[Good2Go]

CF - You can try to insult me and dismiss my points all you like but it won't change the facts (that you didn't bother to read - like the sales guy at FF telling me others had voiced the same complaints). Rather than speculating on how I might have brought all of this on myself, why not contact your buddy at Cilo and ask him WTF? Or better yet, why not let him speak for himself?

 

Kevino - Thanks for your consideration, but I gave up hope of getting anything from Cilo months ago when I broke down and bought a replacement pack. This isn't a case of miscommunication. I'm sure they received my two unanswered emails as well as the letter I sent them along with my pack. The reason I posted in this thread was/is to let other people who are considering buying Cilo NWD packs know about their practices with respect to manufacturing (i.e., you gotta finish the last step yourself), warranty and customer service. Mission accomplished.

[CaleHoopes]

Wow really? $150 for a 20L pack that weighs 9 oz total? Hmmm. I think I woulda just bought a Flash 18 from REI and I could have afforded 4 packs even if they DIDNT take it back. Sounds like a waste of money in the first place to me, and if you're gonna make a decision to spend $150 on a 20L pack, I guess I'd be bitching about the warranty too. Of course, I don't think I would have spent that to save 2 oz. I can do a little extra workout to carry 2 oz in the alpine.

 

Keep in mind, I'm a proponent of Cilo. I like Graham's stuff. But I also know where my price point for my sanity lies and if you're spending $150 for a 20L pack, it better make some awesome waffles and fold out to a fricken hot tub in my expedition tent.

Edited October 28, 2012 by CaleHoopes

[B Deleted_Beck]

Sounds like Cilo dropped the ball, to me.

 

I still like my pack. I didn't get an NWD, and have zero interest in NWD.

[genepires]

My first email to Cilo was at the end of April 2012, they responded about 3 weeks later, I responded to that message the same day. They failed to respond, so in June I sent them my pack along with a letter, re-stating the facts and asking for a response. I have never heard anything back since, nor have they sent back the pack .

 

Hi Aaron,

 

Thanks for the photos of the pack; they help us understand what's going on with your pack much better. We take any sort of pack malfunctioning very seriously and have had very few complaints about the NWD packs. From the photos, it looks like the seams on the shoulders were not seam sealed after you got the pack. Due to the nature of non-woven dyneema, initial seam sealing is necessary. Because of this, we include seam sealing instructions and a tube of Seam Grip with all new NWD packs. At this point, the best bet would be to place a layer of clear tape over the separated fabric and Seam Grip it into place. That should keep the fabric from separating any more and make the pack last quite a bit longer.

 

CiloGear Ninja

 

Once again, yes their response was late but the email was appropriate. Seeing that it appears that you are trying to slander cilogear, how about showing us the second email? If the language was rude, then I can understand why they did not respond. I can only imagine the contents of the letter.

 

In general, most companies do not take back product without a return authorization number of some kind.

[CWC01]

This isn't the first complaint of this sort that I've heard about Cilo. There's lots of choices though I haven't spent much time dwelling on it.

 

 

[ADKMan]

I know Graham and a couple of his employees frequent cc.com, it would be interesting to get their take on this situation.

[Saint_Helens]

Wow, coldfinger it seems like you have something personal in this discussion! I'm only weighing in because I was in the market for a F&L pack earlier this year and did a bunch of research. I came across enough complaints about CILO packs that I decided to get a CCW pack instead. To be clear, I don't own a CILO pack, and do not have any personal experience with them, or the company, but I read enough complaints online that I was sufficiently worried about getting one of their packs. You know what they say about where there is smoke, there is fire... even a quick search of cc.com, mp.com, and rc.com bring up enough complaints about CILO's packs falling apart, blown seams, and craptastic customer service to make anyone think twice about dropping a couple of bills on a pack. From what I've read, unfortunately, it seems G2G's experience is probably not that unique.

 

On the other hand, I did not find a single person complaining about Randy or CCW. My interaction and purchase of my CCW pack was quick, smooth, and efficient. I'm happy with the customer service, and even happier with my pack.

 

+100 CCW.

[Coldfinger]

Naw, no horse in the race for me, just seemed overly heated and not very enlightening.

 

Maybe there should have been a cilo problems thread or maybe it should have been a spray battlecage. Just seemed too agro and way too wordy.

 

My experience with very lightweight fabrics has been that you better know how fragile they are and you better have a damn good reason to use them as they are great for discreet specialized applications, but suck otherwise. I had a firslight tent that saved my butt in a very nasty storm but would have exploded if not for a generous dose of seamgrip.

 

Good to keep in mind that Cilo offers highly specialized spendy stuff that is made to order, not preordered from a chinese factory, so their customer service (read warranty or return) policy HAS to be way different than just about anyone else.

 

So two take home lessons might be to be very conscious of the fabrics and construction (especially if they send you seam grip with a pack-can't say I have heard of that!) and that how one says something is actually more important than what one says.

 

Customer service doesnt mean you have to make exceptions, just that you have to be nice yet firm and consistent. Making exceptions for folks who are being noisy isnt at all fair to the rest of us.

 

Sometimes you have to say no.

[Good2Go]

Wrong again CF. I'll try to keep it simple for you. The warranty I referenced is provided under WA law (RCW 62A.2-314 warranty of merchantability and RCW 62A.2-315 warranty of fitness for a particular purpose, to be exact), not Cilo's policy. The only way a retailer can waive these warranties is to expressly disclaim them in a contract. The only contract between me and Cilo was consummated when I purchased the pack through their site, and there was no express warranty disclaimer presented during that process. I never asked Cilo for special treatment, only to what I am entitled under the law.

[bearbreeder]

one advantage about buying "name brand" gear from somewhere like REI and Backcountry ... youll never had to worry or argue about warranty ... even years after the fact ...

 

the simple fact is that there are tons of very good climbers out there who use those "name brand" packs to do crazier things than most people here would do with any pack ...

 

as to what you should get ... get what FITS, is decently durable and does what you want for the price you want ... and where you have options if it doesnt fit or doesnt work out the way you expect

 

did i hear FIT ??? ... it all starts from there

 

 

[CaleHoopes]

I agree with Coldfinger. Once you get into the full-on realm of "Fast & Light" or "Ultralight" you need to realize that it compromises durability. I'm ok with that, myself. I just realize that the lighter weight it is, the more delicate I have to be. I still think the discussion about Cilo and their warranty would have more weight if we weren't talking about something as small as 20L. Basically, that NWD pack is a stuff sack with shoulder straps.... Anyhow, Bearbreeder has it right too. I've seen many pictures of alpinists doing incredible things with "brand name" packs. Also, if you have a pro-deal, you'll end up using everything that you can get that's free/cheap through the pro-deal - so that's where we see elite alpinists using their deal in order to get pix to show off their sponsorship.

 

Anyway, I agree FIT is important - however, when you're as small as 20L you basically have a bookbag with no waist strap (or some really super light one). I don't know how much FIT enters into something that small.

 

However, since the thread was originally about Fast & Light - I do think FIT is important - granted its just like the durability. The better FIT, usually the HEAVIER you go. The best fitting pack I ever wore was a BD Infinity 60 with the evolve suspension. For a 60 it wasn't bad 3.75lbs. But it could carry so well. A stripped down Cilo is much lighter but I can tell it doesn't "FIT" quite as well and doesn't carry as well. A TON more versatile than the BD Infinity, but I give up a bit for that versatility, lightness and ultimately it's durability.

[chris]

I agree with a lot of Cale's post. I don't even consider fit on anything 30L or less. I typically remove the waistbelt and its the features (or lack of them) that determines my purchasing decision. I'm happy with the Warthog 26L that I won in a drawing on Dane's blog, but my overnight ski-touring pack needs to have compression straps.

 

What I have discovered is that I'm willing to take a weight penalty for features that I appreciate on a pack. Just a stuff sack with shoulder straps doesn't work for me 66% of the time, irregardless of how light-weight it is.

 

So another brand to check out is Millet. I'm getting ready to order two of their packs, a 30L and 45L. It appears to have all of the features I want and none that I don't.

[CaleHoopes]

LOL Chris... that's one of the reasons I really LIKE the REI Flash for a quickie summit pack. It has a few inside pockets, two daisy chains on the outside and a tool attachment. FEATURES! For 11 oz. For $35. The killer app.

 

Features can be important.

[bearbreeder]

 

Anyway, I agree FIT is important - however, when you're as small as 20L you basically have a bookbag with no waist strap (or some really super light one). I don't know how much FIT enters into something that small.

 

However, since the thread was originally about Fast & Light - I do think FIT is important - granted its just like the durability. The better FIT, usually the HEAVIER you go. The best fitting pack I ever wore was a BD Infinity 60 with the evolve suspension. For a 60 it wasn't bad 3.75lbs. But it could carry so well. A stripped down Cilo is much lighter but I can tell it doesn't "FIT" quite as well and doesn't carry as well. A TON more versatile than the BD Infinity, but I give up a bit for that versatility, lightness and ultimately it's durability.

 

i dont think fit relates to weight at all ... a good fit doesnt mean that you need to have all the fancy suspension, frame, etc ...

 

it just means something that fits your body length, straps that dont dig in at the wrong places, something that doesnt shift, etc ...

 

a well fitting pack and be quite light and still carry quite comfortably ...

 

one of my better fitting packs is a MEC 13L bullet ... which IMO is quite important for doing multi if im going to be climbing with it for 15+ pitches ... and it weights 300g

 

whatever you do dont compromise on fit ... with enough different packs around you shouldnt have to these days

 

youll know if a pack fits you the moment you put it on with the weight you want ... its like bad fitting shoes, if its bad, it wont get any better

 

too many people IMO get caught up in what other people are using, famous people are using, the latest intrawebs trend, or the fancy (or not so fancy but internet trendy) brand names ... when a few hours at the store trying everything on and running around with it will be the best judge of what youll like

 

 

 

 

[Alan Trick]

I think CaleHoopes was referring to something a bit different. Packs often fit differently when carrying a light load vs a heavy load. This distinction isn't really noticeable for small packs because you can only fit so much stuff on them.

 

Where things become more awkward is when you get something like a 45L pack with no suspension and then you try to use it as an overnight pack.

[Coldfinger]

Good points on fit and comfort, will say it again:

 

Am VERY impressed with the MH Summitrocket 40 hipbelt, it aint at all bulky but is very comfortable with a load of rope, hardwear and bivy gear. Kinda reminds me of my Arcteryx warp strength harness in terms of bringing the soft shell concept to belts. Hope we see more hipbelts like that one!

 

Would add that I will not buy an alpine pack without compression straps, so called leaders packs dont need them (like my BD BBee), but those are NOT imho an alpine pack. Nice thing about a big, light alpine pack is that one can also bring a leaders pack without a big weight or clumsiness while climbing penalty.

[Coldfinger]

Btw, anybody else noticing this thread just went from about 10 pages to 4 and now back to 10? Weird!

Edited October 29, 2012 by Coldfinger

[B Deleted_Beck]

I had a chance to fap with the pack more last night. It's definitely not for the casual nor novice user. I pulled the stay out and hammered on it on the garage for a bit- really tweaked it at the ends to get it curved out off my massive ass of steel, and athe top to help suck the load in. Worked with some compression combinations on the suspension system, then tried some nonspecific-strap compression combos... Man, I've never had a pack fit so good. Sucks into my back, responds really well with a big, heavy load... At least monkeying around with it- only an alpine excersion will tell for sure.

 

Anyway... It's a pain in the ass, but probably with it.