Closing City Parks

[Fairweather]

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Originally posted by AlpineK:

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Originally posted by Winter:

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Originally posted by Fairweather:

In raw dollars, the wealthy still pay the vast share of local revenues.

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How the hell is the government supposed to work? So we make sure the wealthy are not paying the "vast share" of tax dollars on a local level. So the 1% of Americans that control the 60% of wealth in this country (or whatever those figures are) have to pay less than 60% of the taxes? How is that fair?

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Lets think about this. If a latte costs $3 and person A has $10 and person B has $100 who is more likely to buy the latte. Isn't $3 a lot harder to come up with if you only have $10 to your name.

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True, person A will have to make more difficult decisions. Do they really NEED to spend $3 on a latte? Maybe if they make a good decision here, their personal economic future will be brighter.

 

Person B will more likely go ahead and spend the money. In the process he/she will contribute to the economic process that gives the person behind the latte counter a JOB, and so on down the line.

 

Alpine K,

 

Might I suggest a book on basic economics? (Hint: Avoid anything written by a guy called Marx.)

 

[ 11-18-2002, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Fairweather ]

[Winter]

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Originally posted by Fairweather:

Winter,

 

As usual, you have misread my post, or perhaps been blinded by you presumptions about me. I do not support a flat tax. When I say that the current code is "progressive enough", I mean just that. The middle class that entertains this flat tax notion simply hasn't done the math. Generally speaking, I think the current code that steepens as you "climb the ladder of success", so to speak, is fair. I'm not sure, but I think the top rate is around 35%. (??)

 

A system that taxes the wealthy at, say 70%, would be unfair. Punishing the rich to such a degree kills innovation, hard work, capital risk, and the rewards thereof.

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Touche, my friend. You are correct. I did misread your post and assumed that, like a good conservative (or libertarian), you favored a flat tax. Your post, however, was not altogether clear on your position. I couldn't figure out what you meant either way.

 

I AM glad to see you have fallen into line with the traditional liberal philosophies of the progressive tax. What would MtnGoat think?

 

[ 11-18-2002, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: Winter ]

[Winter]

quote:

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Originally posted by Fairweather:

True, person A will have to make more difficult decisions. Do they really NEED to spend $3 on a latte? Maybe if they make a good decision here, their personal economic future will be brighter.

 

Person B will more likely go ahead and spend the money. In the process he/she will contribute to the economic process that gives the person behind the latte counter a JOB, and so on down the line.

 

Alpine K,

 

Might I suggest a book on basic economics? (Hint: Avoid anything written by a guy called Marx.)

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Uhhh ... I think Alpine K was trying to defend the progressive tax. In response, you suggest that by giving rich people more money to spend they will stiumlate the economy and raise everyone's standard of living. Sounds to me like trickle down economics. You don't help the poor by giving the rich more mooney to spend. Shit, what would robin hood think about that economic theory?

[AlpineK]

Originally posted by Fairweather:

In raw dollars, the wealthy still pay the vast share of local revenues.

 

I think you might need a course in math and economics. Just because wealthy people pay more total dollars doesn't mean they pay the same percent of their income, which is the real test of how much any tax hurts.

[Fairweather]

Fairweather does not support the flat tax. Just as a mountain often gets steeper as you climb upward, so too should the federal tax code. ...But if the summit is unobtainable, the top rate too high, too many won't even try. The desire to seek greater reward will die.

 

I now agree with Mtn. Goat only 98% of the time!

[sk]

In my experience rich people do not spend money...that is how they stay RICH you are wrong... it is the middle class person that spends to their means, a poor person spends beyond their means and rich people SAVE and INVEST. Trickle down ecanomics DOES NOT WORK.

[Fairweather]

quote:

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Originally posted by AlpineK:

Originally posted by Fairweather:

In raw dollars, the wealthy still pay the vast share of local revenues.

 

I think you might need a course in math and economics. Just because wealthy people pay more total dollars doesn't mean they pay the same percent of their income, which is the real test of how much any tax hurts.

"Hurts"? So if the poor "hurt", so should we all? ...and equally? You sound like a socialist to me there AK.

[bobinc]

If the rich could hire the poor to die for them, the poor could make a pretty good living.

[To_The_Top]

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Originally posted by Fairweather:

 

Will Mercer Island be compensating the state/county for the current value/equity of this park, or are they just "taking over the payments", so to speak?[/QB]

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Fairweather,

That is a good question. I dont know as of now but I think it is in the negotiation phrase. I looked at Matts question as a general one, so touche on the point of it being more specific. I do like a good public debate on taxes, so thanks for jumping in. One thing I did notice is that your point becomes lost when attacking a person or using demagoguery to rationalize the stance, I'm not saying your the only one but it is tough to get past this.

I am surprised that a lot of people will argue, dont tax them, when they do not examine the other side of the coin, which would be like saying:"tax us more, not them" and I do believe that there is waste in government, but there is also waste in the private sector. One difference is the private sector is looking for profit and government cant, and different rules apply.

TTT

[Fairweather]

quote:

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Originally posted by yaya:

In my experience rich people do not spend money...that is how they stay RICH

you are wrong... it is the middle class person that spends to their means, a poor person spends beyond their means and rich people SAVE and INVEST. Trickle down ecanomics DOES NOT WORK.

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GOOD GOD! Are you serious? Who builds their nice houses? Their boats? Their Audis? And when they "invest" do you suppose that generates capital that corporations (and government! ie: bonds) can use to buy physical improvements? Jobs?? Jobs??

 

Has a person w/o money ever given you a job or hired you to do contract work?

[AlpineK]

Socialist me hahaha. I run a small business you idiot. If I have to pay taxes I want everyone else to feel the same pain I do.

 

Getting back to car tabs if everyone spends $30 then thats a regressive tax. If you can afford to buy a Hummer then you can afford to spend more for car tabs.

 

I should say I thought the old fees for tabs were too high, but I'm not into the $30 thing.

[bobinc]

Sad, but true. The flat tab rate did away with one of the few progressive fees we had in this state. It still amazes me how people don't get this. But even more amazing is how they blame the feds for taxes being too high when the real cause is right under their nose: Washington is one of the most regressive tax states in the US.

[Fairweather]

quote:

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Originally posted by To The Top:

quote:

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Originally posted by Fairweather:

 

Will Mercer Island be compensating the state/county for the current value/equity of this park, or are they just "taking over the payments", so to speak?

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Fairweather,

That is a good question. I dont know as of now but I think it is in the negotiation phrase. I looked at Matts question as a general one, so touche on the point of it being more specific. I do like a good public debate on taxes, so thanks for jumping in. One thing I did notice is that your point becomes lost when attacking a person or using demagoguery to rationalize the stance, I'm not saying your the only one but it is tough to get past this.

I am surprised that a lot of people will argue, dont tax them, when they do not examine the other side of the coin, which would be like saying:"tax us more, not them" and I do believe that there is waste in government, but there is also waste in the private sector. One difference is the private sector is looking for profit and government cant, and different rules apply.

TTT[/QB]

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TTT,

 

Alpine K has called me a "Jesus Freak"(not sure why), a "Mother Fucker" and once threatened to rob my house. Forgive me if I don't feel compelled to grant him a civil debate.

 

[ 11-18-2002, 08:34 PM: Message edited by: Fairweather ]

[sk]

quote:

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Originally posted by Fairweather:

quote:

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Originally posted by yaya:

In my experience rich people do not spend money...that is how they stay RICH

you are wrong... it is the middle class person that spends to their means, a poor person spends beyond their means and rich people SAVE and INVEST. Trickle down ecanomics DOES NOT WORK.

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GOOD GOD! Are you serious? Who builds their nice houses? Their boats? Their Audis? And when they "invest" do you suppose that generates capital that corporations (and government! ie: bonds) can use to buy physical improvements? Jobs?? Jobs??

 

Has a person w/o money ever given you a job or hired you to do contract work?

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Most of the people I have worked for have been small buseness owners who are MIDDLE CLASS

 

My point is that if you gave me a million dollars and I spent it I would no longer be rich now would I? most jobs are gereated by people who work ( the middle class) so few people are truely wealthy I doubt most people have worked for a person who is truely wealthy either. I am not talking about corprate wealth, but personal wealth.

[Fairweather]

Ya,

 

I will certainly agree with you re: wealth not being measured only by who has the most $$$. The meaning of "wealth" is too often ground down to money.

[sk]

that was not realy what I was getting at, although I do agree. I still stand by what I was trying to say. (even if I am wrong) the richest (most $) people I have ever met did not SPEND alot. they were/are very frugle there for they remain wealthy.

[AlpineK]

quote:

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Originally posted by Fairweather:

quote:

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Originally posted by To The Top:

quote:

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Originally posted by Fairweather:

 

Will Mercer Island be compensating the state/county for the current value/equity of this park, or are they just "taking over the payments", so to speak?

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Fairweather,

That is a good question. I dont know as of now but I think it is in the negotiation phrase. I looked at Matts question as a general one, so touche on the point of it being more specific. I do like a good public debate on taxes, so thanks for jumping in. One thing I did notice is that your point becomes lost when attacking a person or using demagoguery to rationalize the stance, I'm not saying your the only one but it is tough to get past this.

I am surprised that a lot of people will argue, dont tax them, when they do not examine the other side of the coin, which would be like saying:"tax us more, not them" and I do believe that there is waste in government, but there is also waste in the private sector. One difference is the private sector is looking for profit and government cant, and different rules apply.

TTT

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TTT,

 

Alpine K has called me a "Jesus Freak"(not sure why), a "Mother Fucker" and once threatened to rob my house. Forgive me if I don't feel compelled to grant him a civil debate.[/QB]

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I'm not looking for a totally civil debate. You do seam to lack a sense of humor though. In real life I would never rob your house, or any house. I thought I would test you about being a Jesus Freak due to some comments you made about the first amendment. As to Motherfucker well you are, but so am I. Try and relax.

 

[ 11-18-2002, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: AlpineK ]

[Fairweather]

quote:

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Originally posted by yaya:

that was not realy what I was getting at, although I do agree. I still stand by what I was trying to say. (even if I am wrong) the richest (most $) people I have ever met did not SPEND alot. they were/are very frugle there for they remain wealthy.

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Yes, but the "middle class" people who hired you undoubtedly catered to or contracted with wealthier individuals/corporations. If not directly, then down the line.

[sk]

what do you mean??? that they were trying to sell their goods to rich people??? well sure. But (okay I could be talking myself into a corner here, but bare with me any way ) the meat of the clients of the companies I have worked for have been the middle class. i.e. Clothing store, we MIGHT get one extreamly wealthy customer that comes in and drops a grand twice a month. what keeps food on the table and me paid was the middle class people that came in every day. not the SAME PERSON mind you< but the many middle class people

[To_The_Top]

quote:

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Originally posted by Fairweather:

quote:

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Originally posted by To The Top:

quote:

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Originally posted by Fairweather:

 

Will Mercer Island be compensating the state/county for the current value/equity of this park, or are they just "taking over the payments", so to speak?

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Fairweather,

That is a good question. I dont know as of now but I think it is in the negotiation phrase. I looked at Matts question as a general one, so touche on the point of it being more specific. I do like a good public debate on taxes, so thanks for jumping in. One thing I did notice is that your point becomes lost when attacking a person or using demagoguery to rationalize the stance, I'm not saying your the only one but it is tough to get past this.

I am surprised that a lot of people will argue, dont tax them, when they do not examine the other side of the coin, which would be like saying:"tax us more, not them" and I do believe that there is waste in government, but there is also waste in the private sector. One difference is the private sector is looking for profit and government cant, and different rules apply.

TTT

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TTT,

 

Alpine K has called me a "Jesus Freak"(not sure why), a "Mother Fucker" and once threatened to rob my house. Forgive me if I don't feel compelled to grant him a civil debate.[/QB]

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All I can say if you hear a dump truck in the dead of night that smells like popcorn racing towards your house you will know what sort of business AlpineK is in soon, run for the hills!

Just kidding, not calling AlpineK a bash and rob. I was referring to Matt, I dont think that he is arrogant at all. Just want to point out that the rich will try to bribe the masses to speak for them, while the masses end up getting it in the shorts in the end. TTT

[sk]

yeah, someone sort of agrees with me

[Fairweather]

If I'm just livin' on the crumbs beneath the rich man's table, well then, those crumbs don't taste too bad. (in my case, anyway) ...And what do I care if he's eating REAL well? Should I be full of envy? Better that I strive/aspire to sit at the same table with him than try to knock him off his stool and beat him down.

 

Look, I realize that there are those so poor they have little hope of lifting themselves out. And as Americans, we should all be willing to help out. And yes, compelled to help via taxation. But not to the degree that we institutionalize poverty, or create govt. agencies that are themselves, dependent on the poor for their very existence. And certainly not to the degree that the "poor" can reap the same fruits society offers without working just as hard as myself, or Alpine K. This kind of welfare state just breeds laziness, for which I have utter contempt.

 

AS for the $30 tabs; I've said that I did not support Eymans initiative. Just that I understood the public frustration which led to it's passage.

 

And YOU, Alpine K, are a motherfucker......but you can be my wing-man anytime.

[To_The_Top]

There will be less crumbs falling from the riches table if you get stuck paying for the taxes, that they so think are unfair. Dont fall in the trap of defending those that say it is unfair, you should really question why they say this. Being involved with the rich this is a business decision, not a personal one. I do agree with you on that you should never give up, that is not the American way, just dont defend those that want to pillage what you have.

TTT

[Fairweather]

TTT,

 

I rarely hear the wealthy complaining about taxes. The loudest complaining, and rightfully so, comes from the middle class.

 

Rich individuals and corporations have a vested interest in a healthy American middle class to buy their products and services. Your response to this statement will be something like, "they are only beholden to their shareholders". To which I reply, most (50-60%) middle class Americans ARE the shareholders, if not directly, then through their retirement 410k's.

 

I really don't see anything sinister going on other than the occasional Enron, or Global Crossing debacle, and I am hopeful these criminals will be dealt with very harshly.

[To_The_Top]

quote:

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Originally posted by Fairweather:

I really don't see anything sinister going on other than the occasional Enron, or Global Crossing debacle, and I am hopeful these criminals will be dealt with very harshly.

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Fair,

Dont be fooled by the press. These are extremes, and thus news worthy. Please dont be nieve and believe that these are the only ones involved in one form of degree or another. I am a fiscal conservative who sees America selling out to big money at the price of the whole nation.

Find the facts before you jump.

TTT