Pete_H Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 I don't see how this legislation passes even the basic sniff test of holding up to due process scrutiny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 oughta give them aclu-lawyer boys some billable hours at least Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 I don't see how this legislation passes even the basic sniff test of holding up to due process scrutiny. Haven't you heard? We don't need due process anymore. It's a Brave New World out there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted December 2, 2011 Author Share Posted December 2, 2011 I don't see how this legislation passes even the basic sniff test of holding up to due process scrutiny. Haven't you heard? We don't need due process anymore. It's a Brave New World out there... Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 This is so they can start rounding up petition signatories. The last thing we need is an uppity populace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 This is so they can start rounding up petition signatories. The last thing we need is an uppity populace. Now let me see... I know I put my brownshirt and armband around here somewhere... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete_H Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Heil! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Lawmakers and executives do things and draft laws that conflict with existing laws and/or the constitution all the time. Some of them are clueless when it comes to civil liberties issue. Some see civil liberties as liberal whining. Some are morons. And some do things extra legally because they know they can and they have little respect for our democratic processes. Bush's torture and NSA spying programs come to mind. Â Good legislators will consult the experts in civil liberties to determine if their proposals pass constitutional muster - this step can preempt big ole expensive lawsuits later on. This is part of an ACLU lobbyist's job, to make sure that process happens. Â In the end, government will do whatever it can get away with. We are the true check and balance on that propensity. When people ask "How can they DO that?" I answer "Because YOU let them." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted December 2, 2011 Author Share Posted December 2, 2011 Â Â We are the true check and balance on that propensity. When people ask "How can they DO that?" I answer "Because YOU let them." Â I think they are bigger than that now. They seem to do whatever they want. The elected officials do not listen to the people anymore. That is very clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 The elected officials do not listen to the people anymore. Â That's because most people aren't saying anything. Voter turnout is abysmal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Voter turnout is abysmal. as a teacher of high school government classes, i doubt those who fail to turnout have much to say that's worth listening to  "make stuff gooder!!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 as a teacher of high school government classes, i doubt those who do fail to turnout have much to say that's worth listening to  "make stuff gooder!!!" Fixed it for ya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Â I love this place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannible Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Pretty crazy. And then there's this: http://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/senate-rejects-amendment-banning-indefinite-detention  "The Secretary of Defense, the Director of National Intelligence, the Director of the FBI and the head of the Justice Department’s National Security Division have all said that the indefinite detention provisions in the NDAA are harmful and counterproductive, and the White House has issued a veto threat over the provisions."  And yet the senate still went ahead with it. These people seriously have something wrong with them. At least Cantwell and Murray voted to ban it. The Patriot Act was supposed to be temporary, but they keep extending it, and now this. I wonder what's next? Obama better step up and veto it.  The irony is that the people who made 9/11 happen win when our government does things like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Obama better step up and veto it. Â I wouldn't count on Obama stepping up for anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Maybe we should all get together and march on D.C. in protest of this bill. Â Wait, that probably wouldn't work... we'd all be shot before we got halfway there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Â Â We are the true check and balance on that propensity. When people ask "How can they DO that?" I answer "Because YOU let them." Â I think they are bigger than that now. They seem to do whatever they want. The elected officials do not listen to the people anymore. That is very clear. Â It's only 'clear' because you're not trying in a meaningful, effective fashion. They do listen, and they're not any more untouchable now than before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 this is a technical nit, but the Patriot Act has nothing to do with indefinite detention or the use of the military as police. It does contain other troublesome powers...just not these two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 this is a technical nit, but the Patriot Act has nothing to do with indefinite detention or the use of the military as police. It does contain other troublesome powers...just not these two. That's true, the PA doesn't. These two troublesome powers were attached to the larger defense appropriations bill as an amendment (rider), in secret, while we were all stuffing our pieholes with burnt bird and free-range raccoon. It's this "rider" bullshit that really chaps my ass. Not one iota of public input/debate/discussion, yet these riders become law in the dead of night. Same way we got Fee (Not) Demo (Anymore) back in 1996, when a Congressman from Ohio (Ralph Regula), without a fuq'n square inch of federal lands in his district, attached the F(N)D(A) rider to the larger omnibus government appropriations bill. BAM! Overnight, we're paying to recreate on lands that we, the public, already own. Ludicrous in how that occurred. And now it's happeneing again, but this time to your freedom as an Amerikan...  Is it too far of a stretch to think that this rider to the NDAA2012 legislation, if not vetoed/repealed/amended, will be used to police up and detain both Tea Party-ers and OWS protesters alike...?? Or anyone who becomes "troublesome" to the government...?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 It's impossible to say how the government will use a given power in the future. All you can say is that it will probably use that power to its fullest extent (and often go beyond that power's legal limits), if history is any guide. Any power that erodes our most fundamental shared values and principles: Probable cause, due process, fairness, checks and balances, provides a fertile environment for abuse of that power. Â This usually happens when things go wrong: the economy or other tensions produce protests or riots, the country is attacked, the country goes to war, etc. That's when the shit usually hits the fan, and the somnambulent (I'm not gonna fucking spell check that) population suddenly wakes up and says "Huh? How can they do that?" Â Â Â "It happened while you were asleep." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 If history is any guide, then it would seem to me that the law will be bent, stretched, or completely circumvented yet again. Â Seems as if we are about to come full circle. Except this time it won't be the National Guard... Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Bush ginned up the NSA spying program, indefinite detention, GITMO, torture, and extraordinary rendition based on the congressional Authorization to Use Military Force of 2001. Basically, he believed that the Authorization gave him carte blanche to do whatever the fuck he wanted to do, which pretty much worked out to be shitting all over our most cherished principles. Â Oh well, we were scared, right? Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted December 5, 2011 Author Share Posted December 5, 2011 Apparently it passed. Lets see if Obama veto's it. He probably will not because he is now part of the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 No, Bone, it hasn't passed, but thanks adding to the innernutz more ignorant, unchecked opinions, borne of that lump of PlayDough between your ears. Â The House and Senate are now hammering out a joint bill that includes the same language. NOW is the time to write your congressman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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