On the town with GWB, AKA democracy in action

[Dru]

quote:

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Originally posted by iain:

Dude's been on this board for less than a month and over 260 posts to his name. Look out trask, dru et al.

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i make 100 posts/week whats your point

[Jim]

Greg W-

 

Not whinning - just telling it like it is. Write letters or email - Right! Emails get dumped pretty quick. Letters almost as fast. Unless there's a check attached.

 

I dunno what to do about. Big changes needed. I do write and vote for who I think will make a differnce, but the choices are lame.

[Greg_W]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dru:

quote:

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Originally posted by iain:

Dude's been on this board for less than a month and over 260 posts to his name. Look out trask, dru et al.

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i make 100 posts/week whats your point

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For a non-governmental employee, it may be a big accomplishment.

[Dru]

quote:

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Originally posted by Greg W:

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr Flash Amazing:

... distasteful displays of force, coersion, and destruction by various shithead companies. DFA feels like corporate interest frequently runs roughshod over the greater good...It's unfortunate that these actions sometimes affect the little guy, too...

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Do not support those companies, you are free to take your business elsewhere; ultimately, that is how they get the message. There is no "greater good", it's a sham to fuck the little guy out of money for the government coffers. Of course it's the little guy that pays. How do companies pay for damaged goods? Raise prices.

 

Greg W

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youre only free to take your business elsewhere when 1) the co. you hate aint a monopoly, or 2) you have a real choice of different companies, Im not talking Burger thing vs. McDead or Coke vs Pepsi here....

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

quote:

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Originally posted by Greg W:

Do not support those companies, you are free to take your business elsewhere; ultimately, that is how they get the message. There is no "greater good", it's a sham to fuck the little guy out of money for the government coffers. Of course it's the little guy that pays. How do companies pay for damaged goods? Raise prices.

 

Greg W

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Greg,

 

This is an excellent point, and it's one of the Doctor's favorite tactics. Voting with ones pocketbook is a truly excellent way to show support. And, if you choose carefully where you spend your money, you frequently extend your opinion, as companies that share your view frequently put their money (and influence, since that seems to be how the game gets played) toward causes you support.

 

There's something very satisfying about buying, for example, organic over pesticidal produce, or locally-made goods over some megacorporation's crap, and knowing that, in a small way, you're sticking it to some faceless big business you disagree with. Transferring credit card balances to 0% introductory rate cards is another favorite. Those banking cocksuckers do NOT need any more money.

 

So, (drumroll, please ... and some distortion, too ) Dr. Flash Amazing, for the first time ever, agrees with Greg W.

 

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, thank you.

[Greg_W]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jim:

Greg W-

 

Not whinning - just telling it like it is. Write letters or email - Right! Emails get dumped pretty quick. Letters almost as fast. Unless there's a check attached.

 

I dunno what to do about. Big changes needed. I do write and vote for who I think will make a differnce, but the choices are lame.

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I agree as far as Patty Murray and Maria Cantwell. However, I have found that other legislators are more responsive. Also, cc: all your e-mails to the White House, that can get their attention.

[Jim]

Greg-

 

Really now - you have to admit our President is the dumbest in recent memory. I'd even put Ford ahead of this guy.

[mattp]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr Flash Amazing:

There's something very satisfying about buying, for example, organic over pesticidal produce ... and knowing that, in a small way, you're sticking it to some faceless big business you disagree with

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Except that now the big companies like General Foods are getting into the "organic foods" thing. They got you, my friend.

[Greg_W]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr Flash Amazing:

So, (drumroll, please ... and some distortion, too

) Dr. Flash Amazing, for the first time ever, agrees with Greg W.

 

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, thank you.

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Pretty soon, after a few more baby steps you might have the itch to actually place your own gear!!! Just kidding.

 

Greg W

[b-rock]

quote:

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Originally posted by mattp:

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr Flash Amazing:

There's something very satisfying about buying, for example, organic over pesticidal produce ... and knowing that, in a small way, you're sticking it to some faceless big business you disagree with

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Except that now the big companies like General Foods are getting into the "organic foods" thing. They got you, my friend.

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Looks like at least someone's paying attention to how people speak with their pocketbooks...

[Greg_W]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jim:

Greg-

 

Really now - you have to admit our President is the dumbest in recent memory. I'd even put Ford ahead of this guy.

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No, I don't. Carter was an idiot; Clinton was no brain surgeon. As I have watched George W I have noticed something: he surrounds himself with experts. Many media people (and individuals here) have lambasted him as an idiot for this. I completely disagree. Some of the best managers I have worked for use this very same tactic. Good managers surround themselves with quality people who know their business so that they can delegate without worry. The more I read about the inner workings of Ronald Reagan, the more I see sense in what George W is actually doing. I am not saying George W is the next Reagan (say what you will), but Reagan had good management skills as President.

 

Many managers, Presidents, and world leaders surround themselves with sycophants and yes-men. This doesn't work because then the President has to be expert at everything (impossible) and micromanage it all (how can the governor of Arkansas or Texas be an expert on foreign intelligence or policy). I have worked in this environment and it does not work.

 

Greg W

[Greg_W]

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Originally posted by Jim:

I'd even put Ford ahead of this guy.

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Ford was a good vice president, period. Not presidential material, but he did o.k.

 

Greg W

[MtnGoat]

"youre only free to take your business elsewhere when 1) the co. you hate aint a monopoly, or 2) you have a real choice of different companies, Im not talking Burger thing vs. McDead or Coke vs Pepsi here...."

 

Not buying *anything* is also an option. Withholding your buisness altogether is just as valid as choosing between competing products.

 

Wether a "real" choice exists is likewise a value judgement.

[mattp]

Greg -

I disagree about Carter and Clinton. Both of those guys were much more intellingent than Bush or Ford. And that was part of their problem -- it is often said that Carter was inefecive because he failed to delegate properly and that Clinton was hampered by being arrogant but not often said that either of them lacked intellectual capacity.

[Greg_W]

quote:

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Originally posted by mattp:

Greg -

I disagree about Carter and Clinton. Both of those guys were much more intellingent than Bush or Ford. And that was part of their problem -- it is often said that Carter was inefecive because he failed to delegate properly and that Clinton was hampered by being arrogant but not often said that either of them lacked intellectual capacity.

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True, Mattp; I don't disagree re: Ford, see my above post. Can't speak with extreme intelligence on Carter's administration as I was quite young and I haven't gotten there in my historical readings. However, what you mentioned caused both of them to be ineffective managers and therefore ineffective presidents. With that said, I'd say George W is a step ahead.

 

Greg W

[mattp]

I'm afraid I can't agree with you there. His administration may prove more effective at getting their agenda through than was Clinton's, but they aren't done yet and so far I am not all that impressed at their effectiveness (aside from the fact that I don't like their politics). One thing I am sure of, however, is that I am embarassed to have him as president.

[Steamer]

Lots of goverments have been experimented with throughout history. Ours is one of the few that actually lets John Q Public have some input on the process. Is it perfect? No, not even close. Is it the best thing going in the world right now? By far.

If you think it sucks here try moving to and protesting in China. Stupid bastards in those pictures are to blind to realize how good they actually have it.

[Jim]

I'm embarassed too. This guy's vocabulary is stuck somewhere in middle school. His speeches are written to keep 3 syllable words to a minimum. Other countries think we're amazingly stupid for voting this guy in. Oh, I forgot that a majority voted for the other guy.

[Dru]

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Originally posted by Steamer:

Lots of goverments have been experimented with throughout history. Ours is one of the few that actually lets John Q Public have some input on the process. Is it perfect? No, not even close. Is it the best thing going in the world right now? By far.

If you think it sucks here try moving to and protesting in China. Stupid bastards in those pictures are to blind to realize how good they actually have it.

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Actually there are lots of democracies that seem to be doing it better than USA... best in the world? How do you define it? If you think it might be measurable by lifespan or quality of life index Sweden, Norway, Canada, Japan etc. doing much better than USA.

[Greg_W]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dru:

quote:

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Originally posted by Steamer:

Lots of goverments have been experimented with throughout history. Ours is one of the few that actually lets John Q Public have some input on the process. Is it perfect? No, not even close. Is it the best thing going in the world right now? By far.

If you think it sucks here try moving to and protesting in China. Stupid bastards in those pictures are to blind to realize how good they actually have it.

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Actually there are lots of democracies that seem to be doing it better than USA... best in the world? How do you define it? If you think it might be measurable by lifespan or quality of life index Sweden, Norway, Canada, Japan etc. doing much better than USA.

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Dru;

 

By definition, the United States of America is a democratic republic; different than a strict democracy. Sweden and Norway may be "democratic" but also extremely socialist. As is Canada. We are the only democratic republic in the world (95% sure on that); that is why we are so unique. Israel is a true democracy and their Knesset changes power often and fistfights have been known to break out.

 

Greg W

[Dru]

So what is it about the republic system which makes it better... electoral colleges? Hanging chads? Lobby groups purchasing the votes of senators and congressmen?

 

I remind you socialism, as you call it, is an economic system or theory that has nothing to do with political systems like republic vs. federalism vs. constitutional monarchy (all forms of democracy).

[MtnGoat]

"If you think it might be measurable by lifespan or quality of life index Sweden, Norway, Canada, Japan etc. doing much better than USA."

 

I think it's measured by personal liberty and the ability to set one's *own* goals for their life, and this includes the risk to make mistakes and poor choices *regardless* of how your neighbors feel, because they don't own your life, *you* do. This means you can take risks here, without their approval or OK, and succeed, or fail, and yes, die in some cases.

 

I've never understood how a community as comfortable with the rewards and benefits of risk as the climbing community is, can have so many people with risk averse social and political goals. How people so geared to *voluntary* assumption of risk, and freedom of action, can be so supportive of philosophies that intrinsically depend on reducing individuals to secondary players in their own lives who depend on permission from others to live their own lives and make choices that are theirs, until taken by the state.

 

[ 08-27-2002, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: MtnGoat ]

[Greg_W]

The republic system was intended by the Founding Fathers to limit the scope of a central government and keep more power in the states. Unfortunately this has been circumvented by certain individuals (FDR and others). You cannot isolate economic theories from political theories/systems because they all affect our freedom as individuals.

 

Greg W

[mattp]

So is being able to own a gun or drive a gas-guzzling SUV more important than living a long and healthy life?

[Jim]

No, I think it's more that some judge a society by how they treat the lower end of the social spectrum and that money is not the end all. That seems compatible with a climber aesthetic.