On the town with GWB, AKA democracy in action

[Greg_W]

quote:

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Originally posted by iain:

quote:

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Originally posted by Greg W:

DFA;

 

By definition, ELF uses these extreme actions to shock and scare people.

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I think they use extreme actions to stop what they perceive as damage immediately, rather than to intimidate and scare (which might well be a by-product of the action).

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Most often, their actions do damage that they are trying to stop. Case in point, they have been known to turn over cars on logging roads and set them on fire. Doesn't that endanger the forest they are trying to save and cost money when a fire crew has to come out and put it out?

 

Nice try, Iain, but you dodged the key question: What gives them the right to destroy property that is not theirs? At the expense of others? Nothing, they are thugs. If they came on my property and tried to do that they'd leave a few ounces of lead heavier.

 

Greg W

[Greg_W]

quote:

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Originally posted by iain:

Agreed with DFA, I just hope they don't hurt anybody.

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I am sure you would change your tune if it was YOUR property they were damaging.

[Jim]

My vote for the greatest terroist threat:

 

CIA and our wounderful military. They've killed more folks outside the bounds of legal and moral guidlines than any terroist organization. Opps, that must be John Ascroft knoking at my door

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

quote:

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Originally posted by Greg W:

DFA;

 

By definition, ELF uses these extreme actions to shock and scare people. This is terrorism - the use of terror and intimidation in order to coerce. ELF takes action to coerce the public or the government to take actions that ELF wants. Your other comments are equally scary: by what right does the ELF, or anyone, have sanction to destroy log trucks and other property that does not belong to them? No one has the right to exercise their rights (i.e., freedom of speech, assembly, etc.) at the expense of someone elses same rights.

 

Greg W

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GW (hey, you're one letter away from the Prez!),

 

The Doctor agrees that the ELF (and anyone else who engages in monkeywrenching or other types of sabotage) has no right (at least legally) to do what they do. It's illegal, hard to defend to the public, they know it, and they know they can go to jail for it. And if they go to jail, fine. But they make a point to never harm people, and they make it known that they do not intend to harm people (as far as Dr. Flash Amazing knows) which takes a lot of the fear out of the equation.

 

But where do you draw the terrorism line w/r/t using fear to coerce? Is it terrorism when a company says they won't open a branch of their biz in a particular city unless they get tax breaks or other incentives? This preys on the city's fear of losing a big employer and having to deal with the problems this creates such as joblessness. Hell, if intimidation used to change a behavior is terrorism, aren't laws, using that reasoning, a form of terrorism? What about war? The US uses war, or the threat of war, to coerce other nations or groups into seeing things America's way. Doesn't this fall into the terrorism category?

 

The Doctor thinks it's a matter of perspective, and from DFA's perspective, some of the ELF's actions are appropriate, and while they may not be legal under our laws, they further what many feel is a good cause.

 

Hey, it's lunch time!

[iain]

quote:

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Originally posted by Greg W:

quote:

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Originally posted by iain:

Agreed with DFA, I just hope they don't hurt anybody.

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I am sure you would change your tune if it was YOUR property they were damaging.

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Well of course I would be pissed if that were the case, but somewhere in all that anger and desire for revenge, wouldn't it at least cross your mind to consider why someone would risk so much, that they would be willing to carry out such an extreme action to stop what I am doing? It would at least give me pause. I don't think I would execute people for the damage, as you seem to suggest. Your comments about being alarmed by DFA's support of ELF violent protests are rather ironic when you suggest filling them full of lead.

[Greg_W]

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Originally posted by iain:

you suggest filling them full of lead.

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The primary difference here is that ELF is taking violent ACTION; whereas, I would be making a violent DEFENSE. Big difference. Read my whole post and you will see that I would only take that action in defense of my home, family, and property, as is within my natural rights (and guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment).

 

Peace out (need peace sign graemlin, dude.)

 

Greg W

 

[ 08-27-2002, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Greg W ]

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

quote:

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So Iain was like:

Your comments about being alarmed by DFA's support of ELF violent protests are rather ironic when you suggest filling them full of lead.

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That's a very good point, there, mister. Well said.

[Greg_W]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr Flash Amazing:

quote:

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So Iain was like:

Your comments about being alarmed by DFA's support of ELF violent protests are rather ironic when you suggest filling them full of lead.

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That's a very good point, there, mister. Well said.

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See above point re: ELF's actions being attacking or provocative and mine being defensive - big difference dude.

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

Yeah, you have a point, and the Doctor sees what you mean.

 

Here, take this small snaffle as a token of the Doctor's understanding:

[iain]

well we'll have to change all the weyerhauser signs from "trespassers will be prosecuted" to "shot to death". Has a nice ring to it, I suppose. "But he was putting sugar in a gas tank" would be a difficult excuse in front of some dead kid's parents in court when he was blown away by some guy who was protecting company property. Dunno, I'm certainly not sold on the ELF all the time, but I think death is a little much.

[iain]

oh yeah, here's a few peace snaffles too and pass the around for another toke.

[sk]

IMHO, (and this is what made me not a great hippi...)

 

personal rights only extend so far as they do not interfere with another persons personal rights.

 

I think that people who vandalise and destroy people or poperty on either side are over the line.

 

assemble, dicuss, cast votes. do not kill, maim or damage in any way.

 

Can we please go back to talking about climbing, or sex? those are much more fun than arguing about things that have no ansure or solution.

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

Wonder how many times you have to say things like "ELF," "terrorism," "destruction," "FBI," etc. before The Man taps your phone, buggers with your computer, and finally hauls you off to some anonymous federal penitentary with no access to legal counsel, your family, and your climbing gear?

 

 

HEY! FUCK YOU FBI! AND FUCK YOU TOO, ASHCROFT! STICK THE PATRIOT ACT UP YOUR ASS!

 

There, that should do it ...

[erik]

dfa....qualify harming people....

 

is emotional stress not harm??? is scaring someone into believing your points are the right ones not harm?? is reducing the opportunity to enjoy life without the threat of some zealot attempting to ruin my way of life not harm??? is some idiot hanging off of the alaska way bridge deal...creating hours of traffic not harm??

 

these people by focring thier opinions upon us in their radical way of doing things is harming my way life....if i were interested in these peoples thought, desires, wishes then i would seek them out.....i consider them much like telemarketers and door to door religous types.....they are leeches upon society....attempting others to swallow their ideals....by force and cohersion.....

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

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Originally posted by sk:

Can we please go back to talking about climbing, or sex? those are much more fun than arguing about things that have no ansure or solution.

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Ah, yes. Let's get back to those easily solveable debates like sport vs. trad, gay vs. straight, abortion vs. life, etc. You know, the stuff with an easy answer.

[Greg_W]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr Flash Amazing:

Wonder how many times you have to say things like "ELF," "terrorism," "destruction," "FBI," etc. before The Man taps your phone, buggers with your computer, and finally hauls you off to some anonymous federal penitentary with no access to legal counsel, your family, and your climbing gear?

 

 

HEY! FUCK YOU FBI! AND FUCK YOU TOO, ASHCROFT! STICK THE PATRIOT ACT UP YOUR ASS!

 

There, that should do it ...

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Actually I made some calls, and you have two "ELF"s, 5 "FBI"s, and one "Jenna Bush" left and then you're off to a government "retreat" for a little chat and some creatively placed alligator clips .

 

Greg W

[iain]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr Flash Amazing:

HEY! FUCK YOU FBI! AND FUCK YOU TOO, ASHCROFT! STICK THE PATRIOT ACT UP YOUR ASS!

 

There, that should do it ...

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You're just arranging the deck chairs on the Titantic buddy, they already own your ass. And if you're listening in on this agent #2031, I don't know this guy!

[Jim]

I think the point those folks are trying to make is that it's not true democracy in this country. If you have money, access to the media (read money), political connections (read money) then your voice is heard.

 

As Trent Lott said in reply to what are people to do who can't buy access to politicians "Well, they have to gain access in other ways"

[sk]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr Flash Amazing:

quote:

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Originally posted by sk:

Can we please go back to talking about climbing, or sex? those are much more fun than arguing about things that have no ansure or solution.

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Ah, yes. Let's get back to those easily solveable debates like sport vs. trad, gay vs. straight, abortion vs. life, etc.

You know, the stuff with an easy answer.

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good point DFA... I will crawl bak into my moderate, middle of the road, fence sitting, hole now. I think the real problem is extreamism

not extream sports though....

[iain]

Dude's been on this board for less than a month and over 260 posts to his name. Look out trask, dru et al.

[Greg_W]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jim:

I think the point those folks are trying to make is that it's not true democracy in this country. If you have money, access to the media (read money), political connections (read money) then your voice is heard.

 

As Trent Lott said in reply to what are people to do who can't buy access to politicians "Well, they have to gain access in other ways"

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Write letters - often. E-mail makes this nice. Rick Larsen and I have a nice little internet exchange going on. Just don't bitch that "rich people have it all..." wawawa

 

Just a thought, not trying to provoke (for once). Peace out.

 

Greg W

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

quote:

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Originally posted by erik:

dfa....qualify harming people....

 

is emotional stress not harm??? is scaring someone into believing your points are the right ones not harm?? is reducing the opportunity to enjoy life without the threat of some zealot attempting to ruin my way of life not harm??? is some idiot hanging off of the alaska way bridge deal...creating hours of traffic not harm??

 

these people by focring thier opinions upon us in their radical way of doing things is harming my way life....if i were interested in these peoples thought, desires, wishes then i would seek them out.....i consider them much like telemarketers and door to door religous types.....they are leeches upon society....attempting others to swallow their ideals....by force and cohersion.....

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Erik,

 

The Doc supports the actions discussed previously, and feels they are reasonable in the face of what he views as equally distasteful displays of force, coersion, and destruction by various shithead companies. DFA feels like corporate interest frequently runs roughshod over the greater good, and that if a little of that discomfort, suffering (not physical, mind you), etc. comes back to them, then bravo. It's unfortunate that these actions sometimes affect the little guy, too, but corporate America has a history of treating people like so much cattle while the bigwigs rake in gross amounts of money, and those assholes need to be taught a little lesson now and then.

 

Still, Dr. Flash Amazing sees what you mean (here; a snaffle of understanding for you: ). It seems that we eventually do need to agree to disagree. Clearly, with our divergent views on such matters, we'll never agree on this sort of thing (probably). But it's good that we can at least argue it around in circles (without spitting and slander and such) enough times to see where each of us is coming from.

[mattp]

quote:

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Originally posted by erik:

is emotional stress not harm??? is scaring someone into believing your posts are the right ones not harm??

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At least that's what I thought it said...

[erik]

quote:

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Originally posted by mattp:

quote:

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Originally posted by erik:

is emotional stress not harm??? is scaring someone into believing your posts are the right ones not harm??

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At least that's what I thought it said...

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is that what you thought i meant or do....

 

hash tokes dude....i will slink away into my coner of the office

[Greg_W]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr Flash Amazing:

... distasteful displays of force, coersion, and destruction by various shithead companies. DFA feels like corporate interest frequently runs roughshod over the greater good...It's unfortunate that these actions sometimes affect the little guy, too...

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Do not support those companies, you are free to take your business elsewhere; ultimately, that is how they get the message. There is no "greater good", it's a sham to fuck the little guy out of money for the government coffers. Of course it's the little guy that pays. How do companies pay for damaged goods? Raise prices.

 

Greg W