Kiss my Discovery Pass

[rob]

Eliminate the Running Start program.

 

What's wrong with running start? Both of my nieces are in it, it's a great opportunity, and a well-educated citizenry sounds like a great investment for the future and exactly the sort of thing we should be investing in. I'd rather spend money on programs like running start than on well-groomed hiking trails, personally.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I'd rather spend money on programs like running start than on well-groomed hiking trails, personally.

 

They are not grooming the trails. They are charging us (supposedly) for TP in the foul pit-toilets and parking spots at TH's.

[rob]

I'd rather spend money on programs like running start than on well-groomed hiking trails, personally.

 

They are not grooming the trails. They are charging us (supposedly) for TP in the foul pit-toilets and parking spots at TH's.

 

Hmm....I'm still not sure that's a better investment than education. What a waste. I can always bring my own TP. I do anyway.

[billcoe]

That your graph shows State of Washington total government spending drop a half a point decline relative to personal incomes in of interest to me Jfreeberg. I went searching around and found this article. That details the exact opposite of what your link seems to modestly imply.

 

http://www.platformonomics.com/2010/11/fun-with-numbers-state-fiscal-policy-edition-2/

 

Couple of charts copied over, the guy says:

"I pulled spending data on California, Illinois and New York as they’re the most often compared to Greece (Athens-on-the-Pacific/Great Lakes/Hudson respectively). I also threw in Texas which has outperformed most states economically over the last ten years without being completely dependent on natural resources (sorry Dakotas) and it supposedly has a different governmental philosophy (does “everything is bigger in Texas” extend to fiscal policy?).

 

The results are surprising as seen in Figure 1 below. Since 2000, Washington state government spending has grown faster than that of California, Illinois and New York (gulp!). And that is after being the most frugal through 2006! New York is actually the most restrained state of the bunch.

 

Figure 1: Growth in State Government Spending: 2000-2010"

 

"Figure 6: State Government Spending Normalized for Economic Growth: 2000-2010"

 

How do we have such radically different data I wonder? It must be that "economic growth" is significantly different and higher than personal income"?

[kevbone]

Bill,

 

Your post asked what the last 50 years of Washington government spending per person looked like. I have no clue. You are in just as good of a position to research this as I am.

 

You linked a website that had a lot of information, I'm sure, but what is the message?

 

Is there a good idea about how to fund the operation of public lands - other than taxes or user fees? Or closure?

 

 

We already pay taxes. Fund the parks first.

 

Shouldn't we fund the paving of the road to get to the park first?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I'd rather spend money on programs like running start than on well-groomed hiking trails, personally.

 

They are not grooming the trails. They are charging us (supposedly) for TP in the foul pit-toilets and parking spots at TH's.

 

Hmm....I'm still not sure that's a better investment than education. What a waste. I can always bring my own TP. I do anyway.

 

That's not an option. Bring your own TP AND a newly-purchased parking pass.

 

 

[KirkW]

 

Shouldn't we fund the paving of the road to get to the park first?

 

NO...we don't need paved roads and RV pads and all the crap that comes with them. Nor do we need filthy pit toilets without TP in them or garbage cans at TH's. It's not the public or the govt job to keep your car clean. You can shit in a hole and bury it or take a dump at home or in a gas station just like me and why would I expect someone to drive out to the middle of no where to collect my trash for me?

 

Get rid of the "services" and there is no problem.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I'd rather spend money on programs like running start than on well-groomed hiking trails, personally.

 

They are not grooming the trails. They are charging us (supposedly) for TP in the foul pit-toilets and parking spots at TH's.

 

Hmm....I'm still not sure that's a better investment than education. What a waste. I can always bring my own TP. I do anyway.

 

And of course you did not comment on this:

"Eliminate free tuition for WA State employees at all four year colleges/universities. They should pay their own way--just like everyone else."

 

Our state gov't showing it's Orwellian colors (some animals are more equal than others). Like FW said, let them pay for their education like the rest of us.

 

And spending times in the outdoors is just as important as "education" - and is actually a part of it. Are you the guy who favors cutting all PE and sports programs in primary and secondary schools when budgets get tight?

[rob]

I'd rather spend money on programs like running start than on well-groomed hiking trails, personally.

 

They are not grooming the trails. They are charging us (supposedly) for TP in the foul pit-toilets and parking spots at TH's.

 

Hmm....I'm still not sure that's a better investment than education. What a waste. I can always bring my own TP. I do anyway.

 

And of course you did not comment on this:

"Eliminate free tuition for WA State employees at all four year colleges/universities. They should pay their own way--just like everyone else."

 

Our state gov't showing it's Orwellian colors (some animals are more equal than others). Like FW said, let them pay for their education like the rest of us.

 

And spending times in the outdoors is just as important as "education" - and is actually a part of it. Are you the guy who favors cutting all PE and sports programs in primary and secondary schools when budgets get tight?

 

I didn't comment on that part of his quote because I don't have a problem with it. But proposing that we cancel running start so that we don't have to pay a $30 annual recreation tax is a pretty dick move.

 

And I don't see at all what this has to do with cancelling PE and sports programs? Defending running start instead of TP in outhouses = I want to cut PE and sports programs?

 

Sounds like you're just trying to start a fight.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

And I don't see at all what this has to do with cancelling PE and sports programs? Defending running start instead of TP in outhouses = I want to cut PE and sports programs?

 

Sounds like you're just trying to start a fight.

 

You said that funding education was more important than funding parks. This is an argument used to cut things like PE and sports programs in public schools (learning math and how to read and write is the #1 priority). Green spaces, physical exercise and the outdoors are just as important as education.

[rob]

And I don't see at all what this has to do with cancelling PE and sports programs? Defending running start instead of TP in outhouses = I want to cut PE and sports programs?

 

Sounds like you're just trying to start a fight.

 

You said that funding education was more important than funding parks.

 

No, I said funding education is more important than groomed hiking trails. Which it is. And then I later modified that statement to say that education is more important than TP in outhouses.

 

What exactly is your beef with either of those two statements? You don't like the discovery tax, but you dislike my suggestion that education spending is more valuable?

 

Why are you being argumentative? It's ok to agree, even tho I'm a dangerous librul

Edited July 12, 2011 by rob

[KaskadskyjKozak]

No, I said funding education is more important than groomed hiking trails. Which it is. And then I later modified that statement to say that education is more important than TP in outhouses.

 

What exactly is your beef with either of those two statements?

 

Your statements do not reflect the topic at hand - the Discovery Pass. There is no option to stop maintaining trails (which the WTA does anyways) or to close outhouses. The new pass keeps these "services" and forces folks to pay for them.

 

[KirkW]

Collective bargaining = extortion (oh yes, only for public employee unions!) lol

 

Fee for services = fleecing of the public...

 

Uninformed generalizations/hyperbolic declarations = useless drivel.

 

JMHO mind you.

 

d

 

Uninformed generalizations? Who's uninformed? Just because we disagree with the conclusion that you've come to doesn't make anyone uninformed. Thanks for insinuating that we're all idiots though with our useless drivel.

 

As far as these "services" that people keep talking about...In the relatively short time (less than 10 years) that I've lived in OR we've seen fees go up across the board for using our PUBLIC lands and the only "services" that I've seen are the placing of toilets and trash cans at remote TH's that never needed them before the fed/state/county/local government that "manages" (lolz) the land needed an excuse to force people to buy these passes.

 

I've come across many VOLUNTEER groups doing trail maintenance but not once have I come across a paid work crew doing actual trail work for ANY gov't organization in OR, WA or CA. This isn't to say they don't ever do this kind of work but it can't be that often considering how many days I've spent out there, hiking, climbing and camping. I've seen lots of people working to build outhouses, RV pads, roads, huge ridiculous signs telling me I need a parking pass at TH's and lots of other "services" that only cater to the RV and car camping crowd. They put these "services" in attracting people who have no respect for the natural world and wonder why everything is getting trashed. Meanwhile...I've been climbing over the same logs that have fallen across trails for years now and I've never run into a ranger or FS personnel unless I'm on or near land that is currently being or slated to be logged for profit or for the addition of "services".

 

Can someone explain to me why the taxpayers should have to foot the bill for someone to drive their million dollar motorhome up to 5k in the mountains, provide a spot for them to park it on, give them a place to shit because they don't want to be bothered with emptying the septic system they brought with them and then haul their trash out for them because they are too lazy to throw it in the back of the Jeep they have in tow when they decide to head back to the city on Sunday night?

 

I think the people who use these "services" should have to pay for them. But they don't. Camping fees end up in the pockets of private companies (sometimes from out of state) and the rest of us who don't own motor homes and wouldn't, even if we could afford them, are left paying for these "improvements and services" through constantly rising user fees even though we don't need or want the services.

 

OUR public lands should be open to everyone but that doesn't mean I should have to pay for some rich idiot to drive his 5 mpg RV out into the middle of the wilderness so they can park their fat ass in front of a TV and enjoy their air conditioner while I get to enjoy the ecological devastation these monstrosities leave in their wake.

 

 

Yes...I consider forcing everyone to pay a "fee for services" that they don't want or need to be the same as "fleecing the public".

 

But I'm just an uneducated idiot spouting useless drivel so I guess my opinion doesn't count.

 

 

 

[dougd]

 

def. fleecing: obtaining a great deal of money from someone, typically by overcharging or swindling them...

 

I do not believe Washington Legislators fleece the people of the State by using a parking fee to partially fund the park system so they remain open to us all, including transplanted Oregonians, given current political realities concerning tax/spending and resulting budget deficit issues specifically. Anyone who does not acknowledge these difficulties appears to me to be uninformed, or misinformed. Your use of the term fleecing is somewhat extreme, certainly presumptuous, unnecessary, and does not advance discourse on this issue IMO. If you're simply misinformed, well, I guess I can apologize, otherwise I stand by my statement.

 

Saying I was insinuating that "we're all idiots with our useless drivel", it's the way you see things Kirk. You used the word idiot, not me. Not much I can do about that one...

 

I bet if you got into it a bit more btw you'd find that the Washington/Oregon State park folks do a lot more than simply provide a shitter and some tp or build and maintain motorhome pads or cut a log out of your way on a trail somewhere... It's huge man, and it's expensive, all of it. Everybody pays for it, including users.

 

Finally, your opinion does count. And it should count, but the boo hoo poor me shit makes it tough to really hear you.

 

d

 

 

[Fairweather]

Eliminate the Running Start program.

 

What's wrong with running start? Both of my nieces are in it, it's a great opportunity, and a well-educated citizenry sounds like a great investment for the future and exactly the sort of thing we should be investing in. I'd rather spend money on programs like running start than on well-groomed hiking trails, personally.

 

I disagree. Trails are more important than a program which enables students with as low as a B minus GPA to obtain an associate's degree on the same day they complete high school. Why should your nieces get two years of 100% taxpayer-funded higher education? Since it is mostly the children of well-to-do families with strong support systems already in place who take advantage of this, it seems to me that Running Start is an unnecessary program for the affluent. Is giving a 'running start' to a kid such that he or she can obtain a bachelor's degree before their twentieth birthday really more important than public parks? I say no.

[Fairweather]

Collective bargaining = extortion (oh yes, only for public employee unions!) lol

 

Fee for services = fleecing of the public...

 

Uninformed generalizations/hyperbolic declarations = useless drivel.

 

JMHO mind you.

 

d

 

You sound like you have a pony in this game. Lemme guess...

 

[dougd]

By all means, take your guess.

 

You were going to share it with us weren't you?

 

...

[Fairweather]

By all means, take your guess.

 

You were going to share it with us weren't you?

 

...

 

Uninformed useless driveling union thug?

 

Just a guess, mind you.

[cascadesdj]

And how many of you voted for the income tax in WA last November? It was to be assessed only on the rich, and was a minor marginal rate tax (applied on income over a certain level, not on all income). The people in this state were suckered into voting it down. The rich already get a great deal in federal income tax. The highest marginal fed rate is now 35% (thanks republicans and bush). 50 years ago it was 90%! And if you don't work for a living and just live on investment income, you only pay 15%! That's why the richest 400 Americans pay an average rate almost identical to mine, and they make an average of $341 million per year! Real fair, huh. So don't complain if you don't vote or voted against the income tax on the rich in WA last year. This society is losing all kinds of amenities and necessities because the treasury is being starved by the rich repubicans who have figured out how to game the system (big $ contributions to the gop) and the dems are too wimpy to spell it all out and fight for what's right. Wake up, or it's just going to get worse.

[dougd]

Well, you're consistent fairweather...

 

Normally a plus, but...

 

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

And how many of you voted for the income tax in WA last November? It was to be assessed only on the rich, and was a minor marginal rate tax (applied on income over a certain level, not on all income). The people in this state were suckered into voting it down. The rich already get a great deal in federal income tax. The highest marginal fed rate is now 35% (thanks republicans and bush). 50 years ago it was 90%! And if you don't work for a living and just live on investment income, you only pay 15%! That's why the richest 400 Americans pay an average rate almost identical to mine, and they make an average of $341 million per year! Real fair, huh. So don't complain if you don't vote or voted against the income tax on the rich in WA last year. This society is losing all kinds of amenities and necessities because the treasury is being starved by the rich repubicans who have figured out how to game the system (big $ contributions to the gop) and the dems are too wimpy to spell it all out and fight for what's right. Wake up, or it's just going to get worse.

 

Funny but it's the rich WA Democrat fat-cats who are voting themselves and their staffs tax-payer funded college educations at the expense of running necessary services like the State Parks system.

 

And they would have found a way to spend that income tax on things other than the parks - guaranteed.

 

 

[Fairweather]

Well, you're consistent fairweather...

 

 

 

Unfortunately, you're not:

 

Teamsters Union takes aim

at Pierce County park volunteers

 

A union has filed a complaint with the state alleging that Pierce County edged union employees out of hours and pay by allowing non-union workers and volunteers to do park maintenance work.

 

The 8-page complaint filed by Teamsters Local Union 117 also says the county went around the union by talking directly to workers about the potential closure of Sprinker Recreation Center and employee layoffs that might have ensued.

 

The complaint alleges that the county broke state law that governs labor practices.

 

The (county's) actions have had the effect of chilling union activity and undermining support for the union, the complaint says.

 

It was sent this month to the state Public Employment Relations Commission, or PERC.

 

The county declined to talk about specifics of the complaint, although Parks & Recreation Director Kathy Kravit-Smith said she would not intentionally violate a union contract.

 

I would never do anything contrary to the contractual arrangement, she said.

 

PERC issued a preliminary ruling Thursday, that there could be a fair labor practice violation. Preliminary rulings don't address the validity of claims; that comes later, said Cathleen Callahan, PERC executive director.

 

The next step is for the county to respond, which must happen within 21 days of the preliminary ruling. Teamsters Local Union 117 represents 195 county employees, including park maintenance workers.

 

The complaint says the county:

 

•Scheduled non-union temporary workers for the Martin Luther King Jr. Day holiday in January, even though union employees were willing to work overtime and in the past had right of first refusal.

 

•Allowed non-union workers, including those doing court-ordered community service, to do maintenance work during non-holiday hours without giving the union the chance to negotiate.

 

•Allowed non-union volunteers to do maintenance work at Gonyea and Dawson parks, which was previously done by union employees, without giving the union the chance to negotiate.

 

* Went around the union by holding a meeting in June directly with workers to discuss the potential closure of Sprinker Recreation Center. Workers were told the closure could result in up to six layoffs, according to the complaint. Sprinker no longer faces closure because the Pierce County Council has agreed to spend $6.1 million to repair the aging recreation center in Spanaway.

 

In recent months, budget cuts have prompted the county to reduce maintenance at several parks, including Gonyea on 10th Avenue South and Dawson on 90th Street East. Kravit-Smith said the budget to hire extra workers to help with maintenance has dropped more than $240,000 since 2008.

 

Community members have stepped up to help through the Adopt-a-Park program. People living near Dawson Park, for example, have mowed the grass and picked up garbage.

 

The program has been around for 16 years and is included in county code, Kravit-Smith said.

 

The county has other programs that use volunteers, including one in which they serve as park hosts, a task that includes some maintenance work, Kravit-Smith said. That program also has been around for years, she said.

 

The County Council recently restored $80,000 in park money, which will go toward re-opening Dawson and Gonyea parks.

 

Paul Zilly, a spokesman for Teamsters Local Union 117, said the union doesn't oppose community programs, but does want to ensure its workers aren't pushed out of hours or jobs.

 

Zilly said Teamsters and county officials are scheduled to meet this week.

 

 

[rob]

it's amazing how you're absolutely right about everything, FW.

[Fairweather]

Monthly salaries of WA State Parks & Rec employees(minus retirement and other benefits). Impressive.

 

http://lbloom.net/sprc09.html

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2011 by Fairweather

[Fairweather]

it's amazing how you're absolutely right about everything, FW.

 

Please, don't hate your two nieces just because they're smart and come from good homes. Tell them to go out and buy uncle Rob a 2011/12 Discover Pass with the money they're saving on tuition!

Edited July 13, 2011 by Fairweather