Greeks Bearing Gifts....

[Jim]

And I agree, we need to make structual changes back here as well.

 

structural change is parlance for enforcing the neolib agenda of slashing social services while making the peons pay for the crisis engineered by elites and their puppets.

 

I think the more thoughtful response would have been -"Can you provide details on what you mean?"

 

Well sure - cut the Pentagon budget by 25%, provide meaningful finanical sector oversight, do away with ALL the Bush tax cuts. That's a start.

 

Now, without the use of the following adjectives: peon, elite, thug, goon, noecon, liar, and, oh jeesh, whatever.....you can provide some rational on how you would restructure Greece's debt by taxing the 200 richest as you suggested.

[jon]

People need to stop worrying about Greece. They are small potatoes. If Italy, Ireland, and Portugal require more bailout, which they will, there will be nothing left for Spain, which by all accounts will need it. Spain will make or break the Eurozone.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Try to be coherent once in a while. As if rebounds after a crash happened without government spending.

 

As if every "solution" you propose does not occur without government spending - a lot, in fact. LOL.

 

except that I don't claim that government spending shouldn't play a role like you and your pals do at every opportunity. That kind of flip flopping is called hypocrisy by most people. In addition to coherence, you should work on being consistent as well.

 

Yes you are. You oppose gov't spending in on case and support it in another. Retard.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Try to be coherent once in a while. As if rebounds after a crash happened without government spending.

 

As if every "solution" you propose does not occur without government spending - a lot, in fact. LOL.

 

except that I don't claim that government spending shouldn't play a role like you and your pals do at every opportunity. That kind of flip flopping is called hypocrisy by most people. In addition to coherence, you should work on being consistent as well.

 

Yes you are. You oppose gov't spending in on case and support it in another. Retard.

 

And BTW, moron, I opposed both the bailouts and most all of your idiotic spending schemes.

[j_b]

And I agree, we need to make structual changes back here as well.

 

structural change is parlance for enforcing the neolib agenda of slashing social services while making the peons pay for the crisis engineered by elites and their puppets.

 

I think the more thoughtful response would have been -"Can you provide details on what you mean?

 

you were agreeing with Bill, which means you had to know 'structural reform' involved some sticking it to the peons. The company you keep isn't my responsibility.

 

Well sure - cut the Pentagon budget by 25%, provide meaningful finanical sector oversight, do away with ALL the Bush tax cuts. That's a start.

 

Good, but you forgot your repeated calls to take it to public employees and your inexplicable "the states are on their own" knowing full well what it meant.

 

Now, without the use of the following adjectives: peon, elite, thug, goon, noecon, liar, and, oh jeesh,

 

what's the problem with elite, peons and neocon? are they so "shrill" they harsh your mellow?

 

As for the rest of these terms: I will not be harassed systematically by goons without payback. If thugs want to continuously attack my person without hardly ever addressing content, they will have to bear these various epithets like trophies around their neck for they are well earned.

 

whatever.....you can provide some rational on how you would restructure Greece's debt by taxing the 200 richest as you suggested.

 

why didn't you ask some rationale from JayB when he pinned the entire crisis on government spending, when it is abundantly obvious that revenue shortfall due to the economic crisis and failure to tax the wealthy are primary reasons for budget shortfall?

 

I also never claimed that taxing the wealthy would be sufficient, only a necessary first step.

 

[j_b]

And BTW, moron, I opposed both the bailouts and most all of your idiotic spending schemes.

 

right, you were against the bailout because you wanted to let it burn despite the obvious consequence for main street versus I was for the bailout until it was clear there would be no strings attached and it became a free for all for those who engineered the crisis.

[j_b]

except that I don't claim that government spending shouldn't play a role like you and your pals do at every opportunity. That kind of flip flopping is called hypocrisy by most people. In addition to coherence, you should work on being consistent as well.

 

Yes you are. You oppose gov't spending in on case and support it in another. Retard.

 

?

 

Yes, I am not for all and any types of gov spending but you haven't shown how that would be inconsistent with what I said.

 

The issue was Jim's odd complaint about gov spending being unsustainable while he touts schemes like 401ks ignoring in the process that stocks and bonds values are regularly propped by government spending (after bubble crashes or during industry 'restructuring')

Edited June 15, 2011 by j_b

[j_b]

People need to stop worrying about Greece. They are small potatoes. If Italy, Ireland, and Portugal require more bailout, which they will, there will be nothing left for Spain, which by all accounts will need it. Spain will make or break the Eurozone.

 

what we should worry about are the numerous job losses that result from austerity (~600,000 more in the US if the current cuts in fed budget are implemented as planned) and the depressing effect it will have on the economy, especially when combined with the current near 0 effective growth. The UK is in a very similar boat, if not worse.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

Once again OCD boy scores a quadruple self-reply!

 

[billcoe]

Once again OCD boy scores a quadruple self-reply!

 

 

LOL, I'm sure that in his mind all we need to do to make it right is spend a few trillion more here on stimulus (after all, those rich bastards have unlimited money) and create another million minimum wage jobs at McDonalds and a few temporary higher paying construction project jobs. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100619052039AAyqfD6

 

Part of his tired "government knows whats best" for you mantra. Better to head into an off-topic rant than confront the belief anything needs to be done anytime soon. We'll just keep spending like an out of control sailor on a drunken binge who just cashed his paycheck and leave the debt for the lil children to take care of.

 

 

[j_b]

Once again OCD boy scores a quadruple self-reply!

 

not that it really matters whether or not I write 4 or 10 posts in a row, but where do you see 4 self-replies? dimwit!

[j_b]

[video:youtube]RgcKwAIBR7Y

[E-rock]

A whole lot of dismissiveness, makes for a very repetitive read. But you keep on keepin' on, demandin' that respect you deserve, j_bot.

[j_b]

more off topic drivel from the peanut gallery.

[E-rock]

Are you autistic?

[j_b]

not especially.

 

why should I take seriously anything you say after your dismal display in the OBL thread and those that ensued?

[E-rock]

not especially.

 

 

So... "on the spectrum" then.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Are you autistic?

 

He's a scientist - you know that, right?

[j_b]

So... "on the spectrum"

 

dude, give it a rest. Granted, your silly demonizing of opponents combined with the emptiness of your posts made you look like an ass but you don't have to keep doing it. I am all for 2nd chances.

Edited June 15, 2011 by j_b

[Jim]

So, what exactly are you proposing? Just looking for some details because it's not clear to me.

 

 

I'm just waiting for ONE succinct and coherent reply.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

So, what exactly are you proposing? Just looking for some details because it's not clear to me.

 

 

I'm just waiting for ONE succinct and coherent reply.

 

Coherency, for once, would be nice.

[j_b]

I'm just waiting for ONE succinct and coherent reply.

 

I don't have a comprehensive plan as I am SURE you don't either despite your silly posturing. It's pathetic how you claim to have an intimate knowledge of the Greek situation, yet when JayB points to government spending as the cause of the crisis, you approve. As has been established beyond any doubt, skyrocketing debt is mostly due a) the neoliberal policy of not taxing income on capital and b) the economic recession following the financial crash of the casino economy. Yet not a word from you on these salient points.

 

Of course, no comment from you on the sustainability of your portfolio in light of the fact that it would be worth squat without repeated government intervention.

Edited June 15, 2011 by j_b

[billcoe]

I'm just waiting for ONE succinct and coherent reply.

 

OK then, FINE! I'll post this for jb to make his point, cause I believe that he's already said it in between some other personal attacks, thread deflections, handwaving and ravings.

 

THIS IS WHAT JB WOULD SAY IF HE WAS COHERENT

 

Click the link for charts and pictures. It's fairly well spelled out.

 

"The Greek Myth of Profligacy

The Fiscal Crisis in Greece Isn’t About Spending

SOURCE: AP/Tatiana Bolari

 

Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou announces Greece's decision to request activation of a joint euro zone-International Monetary Fund financial rescue plan. Greece is undoubtedly in dire fiscal straits, but the blame does not lie with overspending.

 

By Michael Linden, Sabina Dewan | May 14, 2010

 

 

It’s not the spending. The Greek fiscal situation is a mess, a big dangerous mess. But they didn’t spend their way into that mess and they won’t be able to cut their way out of it. It is easy, and for conservatives certainly tempting, to blame Greece’s woes on overspending. Robert Samuelson’s recent op-ed in The Washington Post even goes so far as to claim that the Greek fiscal crisis signals the “death spiral” of the welfare state. He then tries to extrapolate lessons from the Greek crisis and apply them to the United States. The facts belie both of these claims.

 

First of all, Greece is not the United States and the United States is certainly not Greece. Our nation boasts a fundamentally stronger and more diverse economy than Greece. And Greece has pushed its fiscal envelope much further and for much longer and now has less room to climb out of its hole without assistance from its euro zone partners. By contrast, the United States is in a far better economic state, with 3.2 percent growth in gross domestic product, a job market that is slowly but surely rebounding—with 290,000 new jobs created in April of this year—and total government debt at less than half the size of the Greek’s.

 

Second, when Greece is properly placed in the context of its EU partners and neighbors, it becomes clear that its spending is very much in line with European norms. Where Greece actually stands out is on the revenue side. In fact, the real problem facing the Greeks is not how to reduce spending (though surely that will have to be part of the solution) but how to increase revenue collections.

 

Before turning to the central problem facing the Greek government—its woeful lack of revenue—it is important to first cast aside the inaccurate claim that it was profligate spending that brought the Greek budget to its current state of disrepair. In 2009, government expenditures in Greece totaled 50.4 percent of GDP. While that is definitely high compared to the United States—we’re at about 38 percent of GDP, including state and local government spending—it is absolutely average among countries in the European Union.

 

In fact, total government spending for the European Union as a whole equaled 50.7 percent of GDP, actually a bit higher than Greece. Ten of the 27 countries in the European Union spent more than Greece did in 2009, several by as much as 5 percentage points of GDP (see Figure 1).

 

Average annual total government expenditures, as a share of GDP, 2001-2007

 

Greece’s location in the middle of the pack on spending is not some artifact of the massive recession. Over the past 10 years, Greece has consistently spent less, as a share of GDP, than the European Union as a whole. During the last economic cycle, from 2001 to 2007, Greek government expenditures totaled an annual average of 44.6 percent of GDP. Over the same period, the European Union as a whole spent an annual average of 46.6 percent of GDP. Germany, for example, spent an average of 46.7 percent of GDP over this period. Indeed, from 2001 to 2007, Greek average annual spending ranked precisely in the center of all EU countries, with 13 countries spending more, and 13 countries spending less.

 

Fundamentally, the argument that the Greeks spent lavishly and licentiously ignores the simple fact that Greek spending is and has been boringly average for EU countries. There are many other European countries that spend far more than Greece does but do not find themselves facing a fiscal crisis. Consider the counterexample of Sweden. By some measures, Sweden is Europe’s biggest spender. From 2001 to 2007, total government expenditures in Sweden averaged 55.2 percent of GDP, higher than any other country in the European Union, and in 2009 Sweden spent 56.5 percent of GDP, second highest in the European Union. And yet its budget deficit last year was a mere 0.5 percent of GDP.

 

Denmark, the only country to spend more than Sweden in 2009, ran a budget deficit of less than 3 percent of GDP. How can this be? Countries such as Sweden, Denmark, Finland, and even France spend far more than Greece does, but they pay for that spending with tax revenues. The problem is that even though Greek spending is studiously average, its tax collections are definitely not.

 

In 2009, Greece collected just 36.9 percent of GDP in total government revenues. That was far below the overall EU total of 43.9 percent. Greece’s anemic tax collections ranked them seventh from the bottom among EU countries, with only Spain, Ireland (two countries also facing big budget predicaments), Lithuania, Latvia, Slovakia, and Romania below them (see Figure 2).

 

This has been a longstanding problem in Greece. From 2001 to 2007, Greece consistently collected far less in revenue than a typical EU country. For the European Union as a whole, annual government revenue averaged 44.4 percent of GDP. For Greece, that average was 39.4 percent. During that period, Greece was one of only four nonformer Eastern bloc countries—out of 17 in the European Union—to generate less than 40 percent of GDP in revenue. The only other three were Spain, Ireland (these two again), and Cyprus. Consider Sweden again, with its more than 55 percent of GDP in government spending. Sweden collected an average of 56.3 percent of GDP from 2001 to 2007, a whopping 17 percentage points higher than Greek revenue collections (see Figure 3).

 

Spending and revenue in four EU countries, as a share of GDP, 2009

 

The current crisis has cast a light on Greece’s shadow economy and massive illicit financial flows. There are varying estimates of the size and impact of the country’s underground economy. Some suggest that a quarter of Greece’s GDP comes from its underground economy and estimates are that Greece lost an estimated $160 billion in unrecorded transfers through its balance of payments over the last decade ending 2009.

 

Greece is undoubtedly in dire fiscal straits, but the blame does not lie with overspending. On the contrary, Greek spending is exactly in line with what one might expect from a modern, Western member of the European Union. Its tax revenues, on the other hand, are clearly on the low end. Average spending plus below average revenues equals large, persistent deficits, and that is precisely what happened in Greece.

 

Over the next several months and years, Greece may well be forced to cut back on some of its government services, but it will also have to find ways to bring its revenue collections up to levels more in keeping with its membership in the European Union. Pinning the blame on the spending may be easy, it may be politically convenient, and it may be satisfying, but it’s wrong. "

 

 

[j_b]

Jim and his minions are out in force today.

[billcoe]

Jim and his minions are out in force today.

 

You're welcome