j_b Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Many public sector jobs (not all, but many) are repetitive by nature. Obviously, they 'attract' folks who are good with that. Repetitive private sector jobs, which would be most of them, attract pretty much the same. No need for euphemism. People take repretitive, boring jobs because they don't have the choice. People are no more motivated to repeat the same boring mindless task year after year in the private sector than in the public sector. Pretending otherwise is propaganda. But then, there are police, fire, etc - who seem to be as 'motivated' as anyone in the private sector, which is no stalwart bastion of 'motivation' by any remote stretch of the imagination. Teachers, nurses, academics, .. are way more motivated on average than skilled workers in the private sector. Many of these occupations aren't just jobs, they are professions, which often demand huge personal commitment to be successful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I'm generally good with collective bargaining - the difficultly I'm having is how does, WA state for instance, go forward with reasonable concessions such as having employees pay for more share of medical costs or wage reductions. Yea, I know. Medical care in this country is f*****. Yes work towards changing the structure. But in the meantime there is fiscal reality. The states cannot run a deficit. There was a very, very minor tweak to health care contributions the last go round -window dressing only, and no salary reductions but 4 hr furloughs a month. Great. Honestly, I don't know how it will play out in the long term. But I would vote for the same things I've advocated for all along. Honor the existing pensions but cap increases (past ones too generous and w/o funding) convert all current employees to 401ks - let them have control over their future and stop the unsustainable programs, and last have public employees contribute more to there medical in line with the private sector. But. I just don't see the unions budging so more services will be cut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Your acknowledging that healthcare is not working (up to half of cost going to profits/middlemen) while continuing to advocate cutting worker benefits is just not good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Your acknowledging that healthcare is not working (up to half of cost going to profits) while continuing to advocate cutting worker benefits is just not good enough. Come on. Jim's suggesting some very reasonable (and likely unavoidable) solutions. Everything isn't an 'us' versus 'them' thing. FACT: most states MUST balance their budgets by law. Constitution and all that. FACT: They can't right now OPINION: Bringing retirement contributions in line with private sector norms is one of the least painful ways to do this. Recognizing a real problem and trying to solve it in a real and fair way is what 'our side' is supposed to do. Science based reality and all that. You seem to object to any proposed solution save 'grow the economy'...which is precisely the kind of 'wish your way out' proposal the 'other side' typically pursues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 more Democrats caving in to the plutocrats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I love how GOPers are ready to change the law to get what they want (state bankruptcy) but Democrat enablers still argue to enforce balancing state budgets when states have no handle over the crisis (beside cutting their own throat) while GOPers cut federal aid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 OPINION: Bringing retirement contributions in line with private sector norms is one of the least painful ways to do this. I am all for pension reforms where needed but not with the pretense that is going to fix our fiscal problem. In fact, pretending so is outright dangerous. Recognizing a real problem and trying to solve it in a real and fair way is what 'our side' is supposed to do. Science based reality and all that. You seem to object to any proposed solution save 'grow the economy'...which is precisely the kind of 'wish your way out' proposal the 'other side' typically pursues. If they were really serious about solving the fiscal crisis, tax increases for the wealthy and cutting subsidies to the MIC would be on the table. Making employees pay more of their retirmnent will make the economic crisis we are facing RIGHT NOW worse. ANy discourse that amounts to saying that employees have to take cuts while not demanding at least an equivalent step for the upper 1% amounts to caving in to plutocrats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Your acknowledging that healthcare is not working (up to half of cost going to profits) while continuing to advocate cutting worker benefits is just not good enough. Well then give me a practical solution that say, the mayor of San Jose or Gov Gregoire can implement in the next month to balance the books. Honestly - something, anything but abstractions. The pension thing is something else - that will change, one way or another over time. We just don't - have - the - money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I already told you that this crisis doesn't have a local solution unless you are with the looters and other anti-government types. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Your acknowledging that healthcare is not working (up to half of cost going to profits) while continuing to advocate cutting worker benefits is just not good enough. Come on. Jim's suggesting some very reasonable (and likely unavoidable) solutions. Everything isn't an 'us' versus 'them' thing. FACT: most states MUST balance their budgets by law. Constitution and all that. FACT: They can't right now OPINION: Bringing retirement contributions in line with private sector norms is one of the least painful ways to do this. Recognizing a real problem and trying to solve it in a real and fair way is what 'our side' is supposed to do. Science based reality and all that. You seem to object to any proposed solution save 'grow the economy'...which is precisely the kind of 'wish your way out' proposal the 'other side' typically pursues. I think tweaks like this, in the long run, will aid public service workers and sustain vulnerable programs. There is nothing wrong with being fiscally conservative while pushing a progressive agenda. It just makes sense in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I already told you that this crisis doesn't have a local solution unless you are with the looters and other anti-government types. Nice dodge. If you want to be taken seriously then stop avoiding a straight-forward question. If you were the major of San Jose what would you propose now that services are bone bare? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 tweaks like decreasing compensation for already under-compensated employees only further the race to the bottom. Nothing else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 tweaks like decreasing compensation for already under-compensated employees only further the race to the bottom. Nothing else. what is your SOLUTION again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I already told you that this crisis doesn't have a local solution unless you are with the looters and other anti-government types. Nice dodge. If you want to be taken seriously then stop avoiding a straight-forward question. If you were the major of San Jose what would you propose now that services are bone bare? keep pretending that not paying people their fair share is going to address the root of our fiscal problems like exploding healh care costs, no taxation of those who can be taxed, cratering wages and benefits, mass unemployemnt, etc... All local issues as one can readily see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Conway Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Your acknowledging that healthcare is not working (up to half of cost going to profits) while continuing to advocate cutting worker benefits is just not good enough. Well then give me a practical solution that say, the mayor of San Jose or Gov Gregoire can implement in the next month to balance the books. Honestly - something, anything but abstractions. The pension thing is something else - that will change, one way or another over time. We just don't - have - the - money. When times are good underfund the pensions so you can screw the pensioners when times are bad! That's America! So awesome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I already told you that this crisis doesn't have a local solution unless you are with the looters and other anti-government types. Nice dodge. If you want to be taken seriously then stop avoiding a straight-forward question. If you were the major of San Jose what would you propose now that services are bone bare? keep pretending that not paying people their fair share is going to address the root of our fiscal problems like exploding healh care costs, no taxation of those who can be taxed, cratering wages and benefits, mass unemployemnt, etc... All local issues as one can readily see. One last try at a logical discussion (I know, I know). You, JB, are a key advisor to the Mayor of San Jose. You have cut services to the bone to keep a balanced budget over the past 5 years or so. Further cuts to services are quite impossible without affecting safety and welfare of your residents. You have a month to implement something. Go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 “Public-sector workers’ compensation is neither the cause, nor can it be the solution to, the state’s financial problems,” author Jeffrey Keefe, professor at the Rutgers University School of Management and Labor Relations, wrote in his paper on Wisconsin public employees. “Only an economic recovery can begin to plug the hole in the state’s budget.” He also cautioned that fiscal austerity may prolong the economic downturn by increasing unemployment and reducing demand for products and services. Scapegoating public workers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Still waiting for some practical advice. Or is it to low on the scale to actually get dirty trying to work out public policy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 One last try at a logical discussion (I know, I know). You, JB, are a key advisor to the Mayor of San Jose. You have cut services to the bone to keep a balanced budget over the past 5 years or so. Further cuts to services are quite impossible without affecting safety and welfare of your residents. You have a month to implement something. Go! That sounds as farfetched as the "torture the terrorist before he blows up your family" scenario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I figured another non-answer was in store. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Still waiting for some practical advice. Or is it to low on the scale to actually get dirty trying to work out public policy? you call ignoring the elephant in the room to attack public employee compensation, "public policy". LOLZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I figured another non-answer was in store. Cheers your weak editorializing on my answers (arm waving, dodging, ..) isn't supported by the evidence. I gave you plenty of answers such as the fiscal crisis has no solution at the local level despite your jack bauer analogies and unless you think that making workers pay the crisis is a solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 The frontpage headline from the staunchly center-right Bellingham Herald today is "State Budget Shortfall Growing: Tax Revenues Down Another $780 Million". There is a clue here, I'm sure of it. Tax cuts and their extension are the other side of the "unsustainability" coin. I think we all know this. If raising taxes in some areas are impossible in the current political climate, it's up to progressives to change the climate. Throwing up one's hands and removing taxes entirely from table as "impossible" while accepting the "inevitability" of wage, benefit, and pension reductions is folly. Let's make sure that public sector workers aren't the only ones making sacrifices. If that doesn't meet your right here/right this second criteria Jim, then you need to rethink it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Still waiting for some practical advice. Or is it to low on the scale to actually get dirty trying to work out public policy? as I already told you many times, to everyone his role. Mine isn't to be a sycophant for bashing the character and worth of public employees while pretending that is going to solve the fiscal crisis. Your position is no different than Obama's when he caves in getting nothing in return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 as I already told you many times, to everyone his role. and from each according to his ability... you are right on target, j_b! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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