State Bankruptcy

[Jim]

 

 

I might add that you are sounding more and more like a heartless neocon regressive hatemonger these days. Let me know how the above goes over at the next dinner party.

 

I'd say I lefty socially but fiscally - well - I call it common sense. In a dinner conversation or two that went from my commitment to a single payer health system - because it makes more sense fiscally and for social fairness - when applying similar logic to a pension reform plan - it's like I spit in their food or something. funding

[JayB]

 

I might add that you are sounding more and more like a heartless neocon regressive hatemonger these days. Let me know how the above goes over at the next dinner party.

 

I'd say I lefty socially but fiscally - well - I call it common sense. In a dinner conversation or two that went from my commitment to a single payer health system - because it makes more sense fiscally and for social fairness - when applying similar logic to a pension reform plan - it's like I spit in their food or something. funding

 

Well, the single-payer thing should provide you a socially acceptable haven to return to if necessary.

 

Too bad you missed out on all of the social benefits of sharing your conclusion that the US housing market was a house of cards.

 

 

 

[j_b]

LOL one would think the problem was so urgent that JayB would have gone after the banksters' bonuses paid on the taxpayers' dime by now.

[j_b]

you still have as little credibility as you had when you claimed pension liability was a reason for concern NOW

 

It IS a concern now - you don't seem to get the basic fact that the pension systems are paying out more than thy accure - it's basic math. WA is genreally better than most states and ours is around 75% funded - where do you think the money is coming from - fairy land?

 

Reneging on pensions for public workers now will help almost none toward making states more solvent in the mid-term, little less in the short term, which is what we should be working on instead of playing disaster capitalism along with neoliberals to better bash on public employees who worked for these pensions (or most of them anyway). Shame on you for not distancing yourself from the partisans for the race to the bottom.

[j_b]

ok so what are the numbers?

 

wa's annual budget is what, around 70 billion? what percentage of that goes towards funding retirement packages? and what are the future projections?

 

I was discussing states in general, not Washington in particular. I am sure you could find the numbers on line if you are interested, or you could follow the links I posted and read the analysis for yourself.

[JayB]

you still have as little credibility as you had when you claimed pension liability was a reason for concern NOW

 

It IS a concern now - you don't seem to get the basic fact that the pension systems are paying out more than thy accure - it's basic math. WA is genreally better than most states and ours is around 75% funded - where do you think the money is coming from - fairy land?

 

Reneging on pensions for public workers now will help almost none toward making states more solvent in the mid-term, little less in the short term, which is what we should be working on instead of playing disaster capitalism along with neoliberals to better bash on public employees who worked for these pensions (or most of them anyway). Shame on you for not distancing yourself from the partisans for the race to the bottom.

 

Partisans?

 

That's hatemongeringrightwingneocongoon to you, sir.

[j_b]

and your answer to the point is?

[JayB]

you still have as little credibility as you had when you claimed pension liability was a reason for concern NOW

 

It IS a concern now - you don't seem to get the basic fact that the pension systems are paying out more than thy accure - it's basic math. WA is genreally better than most states and ours is around 75% funded - where do you think the money is coming from - fairy land?

 

Reneging on pensions for public workers now will help almost none toward making states more solvent in the mid-term, little less in the short term, which is what we should be working on instead of playing disaster capitalism along with neoliberals to better bash on public employees who worked for these pensions (or most of them anyway). Shame on you for not distancing yourself from the partisans for the race to the bottom.

 

Agreed.

 

That'd require a complete reassessment of budget priorities towards functions that only the government can perform in society, wholesale outsourcing of tasks that aren't functions that only the government can perform, outlawing public sector unions, and eliminating binding arbitration for public sector workers, elimination of pensions for new workers, and the immediate conversion of accrued pension contributions + earnings into defined contribution plans.

 

My sense is that the political dynamics in this state will continue to favor tossing disabled people off of medicaid, etc, en masse before making even modest reforms to pensions, etc so there's no need to worry too much about any of the above happening.

 

Looks like the regressive neocon hatemongers in Utah just converted to 401(K) plans instead of pensions for all new public sector workers, though...

 

r

 

 

[j_b]

According to the state actuary, two of Washington’s nine pension plans are already in the red with unfunded liabilities totaling nearly $7 billion,” he reminded readers. “This does not include an additional $8 billion in unfunded post-retirement benefit liability, primarily for retiree health care. Unlike pensions, however, these other retirement benefits are not a contractual right, meaning the Legislature has the ability to make changes as necessary.”

 

He, too, understands the adverse pension impact on the state’s budget.

 

“Already our state is facing nearly a $6 billion projected budget shortfall for 2011-13. Included in these projections is the need for additional pension contributions” Mr. Mercier wrote. “The state’s Office of Financial Management projects that an additional $700 million in pension payments above the base will be required in the 2011-13 biennium.”

 

And this is not something to worry about now? Friggin' A - it's sucking up capital from benefical programs. The social safety net is hacked to pieces and we don't need to fix this? Give me a break.

 

fixing it now won't help solve the current crisis. Austerity will make the crisis worse by cutting benefits to people who spend it.

[JayB]

and your answer to the point is?

 

See above.

[j_b]

My sense is that the political dynamics in this state will continue to favor tossing disabled people off of medicaid, etc, en masse before making even modest reforms to pensions, etc so there's no need to worry too much about any of the above happening.

 

quit lying: reneging on contracts with public workers will not prevent "tossing disabled people off of medicaid, etc, en masse".

[JayB]

My sense is that the political dynamics in this state will continue to favor tossing disabled people off of medicaid, etc, en masse before making even modest reforms to pensions, etc so there's no need to worry too much about any of the above happening.

 

quit lying: reneging on contracts with public workers will not prevent "tossing disabled people off of medicaid, etc, en masse".

 

Most of the above could be accomplished with someone at least pretending to advocate on behalf of taxpayers at the next round of contract negotiations.

 

Not going to happen with Washington democrats giving away the store in exchange for public sector union support and calling the process a "negotiation."

 

"Run for your lives, its Dow Constantine..."

 

"For instance, Constantine said today that he doesn't want employees constantly fearing for their jobs as they have over the last two years. But the biggest expense in the cash-strapped general fund isn't paying for immunizations for kids or handcuffs for Sheriff's deputies, it's the staff--85 percent of the general fund goes to salaries and benefits. So Constantine will either need to get pay or benefit concessions from unions or start handing out pink slips.

 

Constantine says that he'll hire a new director of labor relations and convene a meeting of department heads to try to figure out a way to resolve the shortfall without axing employees this fall. He hopes giving everyone more input will make them more open to concessions. But so far, the labor unions have given no indication that they'll make the concessions necessary to make the budget pencil out.

 

Last week Constantine spokesperson Frank Abe told seattlepi.com that the Executive would "outline a significant restructuring of the way this county conducts its labor negotiations."

 

But hiring someone to be a more direct conduit between the Executive and labor doesn't seem like an especially major change. Ron Sims had a famously good relationship with the unions and still couldn't convince them to take any pay or benefit concessions."

 

http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2010/03/dow_constantine_downgrades_fro.php

[JayB]

"Public Health lays off 123 people

 

Public Health - Seattle & King County on Thursday sent layoff notices to 123 nurses, social workers and other staffers, mostly the result of a 50 percent budget cut to a program that helps low-income pregnant woman and babies.

 

"These cuts, as proposed, are devastating," King County Executive Dow Constantine said in a statement.

 

"We recognize the challenge that state leaders face in closing the budget gap, but these cuts will have enormous implications for our community, and may lead to the additional loss of federal funds."

 

Public Health said more layoffs may happen – and thousands more people may lose access to health care - if the Legislature fails to reverse a proposed cut in Medicaid reimbursements to certain clinics.

 

Those clinics include health-care centers that serve primarily Medicaid patients and people without insurance. The proposed reduction would reduce funding for King County Public Health by more than $23 million, leading to the closure of some clinics.

 

Other state cuts include the elimination of tobacco prevention funds and the reduction of Medicaid programs, including adult dental care and family planning."

 

Much better than restructuring pay, benefits, etc.

[j_b]

and? where are the "tossing disabled people off of medicaid, etc, en masse" or do you also expect me to make an argument for you?

[j_b]

"Public Health lays off 123 people

 

JayB is concerned about staffing at "public health" now. LOL

 

 

[prole]

Public Health said more layoffs may happen – and thousands more people may lose access to health care - if the Legislature fails to reverse a proposed cut in Medicaid reimbursements to certain clinics.

 

I missed the part where restructuring pay and benefits for Metro drivers and toll-booth operators is going to do a goddamned thing about the proposed cut in Medicaid reimbursements to certain clinics. Or is this just more rhetorical gimcrackery on your part?

[Jim]

you still have as little credibility as you had when you claimed pension liability was a reason for concern NOW

 

It IS a concern now - you don't seem to get the basic fact that the pension systems are paying out more than thy accure - it's basic math. WA is genreally better than most states and ours is around 75% funded - where do you think the money is coming from - fairy land?

 

Reneging on pensions for public workers now will help almost none toward making states more solvent in the mid-term, little less in the short term, which is what we should be working on instead of playing disaster capitalism along with neoliberals to better bash on public employees who worked for these pensions (or most of them anyway). Shame on you for not distancing yourself from the partisans for the race to the bottom.

 

Another straw dog. Read the post. No one said pulling existing pensions. But if you don't want to make changes in the current system - how are you going to close the $15B pension shortfall in WA - and that is if the fix could happen today - add about 10% a year and that is the definition of unsustainable. If you add more neoliberal, disaster capital, maybe jackboot to the string of adjectives it provides little substance to your argument - which seems to be - do nothing. Great- meanwhile the WA health care plan is going to be eliminated with the free drug care for the elderly poor.

 

I'd rather see public employees go with a 401k plan then see contributions to a non-sustainable plan - for decades to come - by the taxpayers. What is your alternative - please be specific instead of "it can wait till later" or modest adjustments will do. How are you going to find an extra $15B right now, and then $15B say, every 10 years from now on. A tax? Good luck with that one. Any other plausible suggestions?

[mattp]

While I have argued with JayB on a number of points, non stop, over several years, I'll agree with him on one small point made here. The public employee's are a lot stronger of a force than are the uninsured and unemployed. In the interest of balancing budgets, the poor and disabled ARE and WILL be thrown under the bus and, while I don't have any numerical data, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the "savings" to taxpayers that we reap from cutting public assistance do not offset rising employee benefits costs.

 

Do State workers, generally much lower paid than their private counterparts, at least among the ranks of those with advanced degrees or other professional qualification, "deserve" to have their "lavish" pensions cut? Generally not, in my opinion. Jay feels differently. But I will agree that poor and disable people have less of a strident or effective lobby than do public employees.

 

 

[JayB]

"The governor's proposed budget, released before Christmas, would slash funding for programs the middle class would notice, such as state parks, museums, the arts and higher education. It also would hit the poor, dumping the Basic Health Plan, which offers subsidized insurance to thousands of the working poor, and Disability Lifeline, which provides cash and health care for unemployable disabled people."

 

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2013884824_budgetprimer09m.html

[j_b]

State bankruptcy most certainly means reneging on pensions to public workers and that isn't a strawman.

 

You are still not acknowledging that addressing public pensions today will not significantly help with our problem and will most likely make it worse if austerity measures are part of the mix.

[prole]

While I have argued with JayB on a number of points, non stop, over several years, I'll agree with him here. The public employee's are a lot stronger of a force than are the uninsured and unemployed. In the interest of balancing budgets, the poor ARE and WILL be thrown under the bus.

 

We've had thirty years of the poor, the unemployed, and uninsured being thrown under the bus WHEN TIMES WERE "GOOD" by the same people we're now supposed to understand are on the side of the disenfranchised! No one here has explained how they won't continue to be choked out if Metro bus drivers and toll booth operators get their pay and benefits cut. Surreal.

Edited January 28, 2011 by prole

[JayB]

"Public Health lays off 123 people

 

JayB is concerned about staffing at "public health" now. LOL

 

 

Because you can't be against paying people $23 an hour plus quite a bit more in health and retirement benefits to sit in a booth and dispense ferry tickets, or oppose subsidizing a commercial Port that should be self-funding $70 million a year, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...and for using tax revenues to help people who are either permanently or temporarily capable of taking care of themselves.

 

That's how you explain me, your typical corporocratapologizingneoconhatemongering goon, but how do you account for good ole Jim's stance on this one?

 

The man takes the socially correct position on 94% of all policy positions near and dear to progressives so....his desire to see things like public health funded is also a rhetorical false front to advance the eternal dominion of corporate hegemony, etc?

 

 

 

 

[prole]

Jim's desire to see public health funded isn't in question. Yours is however.

[Jim]

State bankruptcy most certainly means reneging on pensions to public workers and that isn't a strawman.

 

You are still not acknowledging that addressing public pensions today will not significantly help with our problem and will most likely make it worse if austerity measures are part of the mix.

 

Fixing a problem that is $15B will not help? And times that by say, 5 over the next 50 years? Yea, you're right. Doing nothing will help more

[JayB]

Jim's desire to see public health funded isn't in question. Yours is however.

 

Fine. You have better access to my ideals and motives than I do, you've seen through the elaborate facade that I've constructed to conceal my true motives from myself, etc, etc, etc, etc. Great.

 

How do you account for the stance of the Progressive's progressive on this one? I don't think he's a one man outlier.