Just a reminder

[KaskadskyjKozak]

"Og like meat" -Kojak

 

When you gonna be a spokesman for ED? In your case, that would be congenital ED.

[Jim]

The fical crisis has exacerbated some existing fiscal unsustainable issues with state and local governments. Shit - if your pension plans were not funded properly in flush times they ain't going to be during this cycle. Sorry, but the basic concept of not spending more than you have, and actually planning for it is preferable, and more sustainable for all services than burying your head in the sand and making believe it will go away if we only complain more about the plurocrats, oligarcy, or the Masons.

 

Given that the voters have turned down and repealed recent tax proposals - what are you suggesting?

 

Not to give any credibility to the storyline that austerity is the way out of this economic mayhem. You have a choice: stand with a) JayB and Obama and his catfood commission or with b) Robert Reich (for example)

 

 

Great summary of the federal issue. Now tell me exactly what you propose to do regarding the state and local level. You criticize my assessment, which is to make some changes to the unsustainable structure - underfunded pensions, reduce benefits, and get rid of automatic yearly pay raisies (not COLA) and then provide me a bunch of arm waving concerning the federal government. Take a look at the link that Tvash provide - What exactly do you propose? The voters reject tax increases - what is the option? What do we do NOW to address the state's two year budget cycle - address some of the structural unstuainable elements or keep cutting things like health care to the poor? I'd like some specifics.

[j_b]

Pumping a gajillion dollars into busted sectors will prevent the expansion of those sectors of the economy where the unemployed might be able to find new jobs. The sooner we accept this fact - the better.

 

That's rich coming from you. This is what we have been telling you for years while you argued that guzzlers, fossil fuels, overfishing, etc were our future. You could have at least the decency to explain what made you come over to our side instead of pretending to give lessons on this matter.

[j_b]

the longer the folks who are attempting to show the market who's boss deny this the worse things will be for all concerned.

 

so, folks shouldn't try to tell the market who is boss yet they should tell the banksters threatening to sink our economy that they won't be bailed out. Did I get this right? Doesn't it strike you as contradictory?

 

 

[j_b]

Great summary of the federal issue. Now tell me exactly what you propose to do regarding the state and local level. You criticize my assessment, which is to make some changes to the unsustainable structure - underfunded pensions, reduce benefits, and get rid of automatic yearly pay raisies (not COLA) and then provide me a bunch of arm waving concerning the federal government. Take a look at the link that Tvash provide - What exactly do you propose? The voters reject tax increases - what is the option? What do we do NOW to address the state's two year budget cycle - address some of the structural unstuainable elements or keep cutting things like health care to the poor? I'd like some specifics.

 

I already told you I wouldn't split the problem into state and federal levels because they are undissociable and I do not intend to caution the narrative that we can start getting out of this hole by tightening the belt of public employees. Whatever cuts are needed for us to waddle through until our next opportunity to make satisfactory changes should be done but I think that getting rid of pension plans for market dependent 401k is ill-advised, especially when many state employees do not get SS.

[Jim]

That's a non-answer. While you are making a link betweent he Feds and State, which the state does get federal money, what is your proposal for cutting the 20%+ (ok, 18% plus $1.7 billion in pension deficits) for the next two year cycle. You can keep jumping up and down about a federal link but the state still has to come up with a balanced budget.

 

Are you proposing a second stimulus to fill the gap? Highly unlikely and will be a temporary fix. How will you address the underfunded pension programs and lack of revenue? Got news for you - things will get better but they ain't going back to boom bubble time again. So if you have anything practical let me know.

[j_b]

I don't have to make do with the cards handed to us by neoliberals. Neolibs winning today in no way implies that I (or you) should take the responsibility of making impossible choices and bear the brunt of these choices not being popular. Bureaucrats will make the cuts that need be but let's not pretend that it'll solve anything equitably.

[tvashtarkatena]

Watching the stimulus sublimate into the ether of falling real estate values and the fact that we are now the only nation willing to loan ourselves money due our crushing deficit spending, any further stimulus seems, mmm, impractical at this point.

 

Such a stimulus won't go towards 'rebuilding our infrastructure'. We're simply not set up for that. Our major utility, communications, energy, and transportation infrastructure is primarily privately owned by various bickering entities - figuring out who to pay out and for what would be virtually impossible, politically and practically. If we had a nationalized grid, rail system, and communications system we might have a crack at job creation in those sectors, but we don't.

 

Take the grid. It would be a great idea, for example, to build high voltage DC point to point long lines for greater efficiency, capacity, and flexibility in terms of bringing power from population poor, sun and wind rich areas to the major urban users. Good luck getting the three largely independent regions: West, East and...he he, TEXAS, and their clusterfuck of private owners to agree on who gets what money and for what. Yeah...see you in 100 years.

 

If we had a national grid, this would be no problem. But...GOVERNMENT IS BAD, so we've got an aging, inefficient, gridlocked, inflexible clusterfuck. In areas where there is strong centralized, government ownership: our own BPA comes to mind, the grid is quite a bit more up to date and better managed than in other areas. Go figure.

 

Notice how the stimulus didn't create fuck all for employment? Welcome to privatized America.

[Jim]

I don't have to make do with the cards handed to us by neoliberals. Neolibs winning today in no way implies that I (or you) should take the responsibility of making impossible choices and bear the brunt of these choices not being popular. Bureaucrats will make the cuts that need be but let's not pretend that it'll solve anything equitably.

 

I'll take that as a "I have no constructive opinion but will wail about the outcome" response.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I don't have to make do with the cards handed to us by neoliberals. Neolibs winning today in no way implies that I (or you) should take the responsibility of making impossible choices and bear the brunt of these choices not being popular. Bureaucrats will make the cuts that need be but let's not pretend that it'll solve anything equitably.

 

I'll take that as a "I have no constructive opinion but will wail about the outcome" response.

 

The status quo will always be flawed. There is no such thing as perfection. Any solution will have pros and cons. This provides a perfect, perpetual backdrop for whiners like j_b to simply, well, whine.

[j_b]

says the fascistic moron who goes from thread to thread taking stupid potshots at people without ever actually making a point relevant to the discussion.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

says the fascistic moron who goes from thread to thread taking stupid potshots at people without ever actually making a point relevant to the discussion.

 

AD HOMINEM! AD HOMINEM!

[j_b]

and the blithering stupidity goes on ad eternam. It can't be ad-hom since I am exactly describing your behavior: the only thing you do is take stupid potshots at people you don't like. That is a form of harassment, or fascistic behavior, jackass.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

and the blithering stupidity goes on ad eternam. It can't be ad-hom since I am exactly describing your behavior: the only thing you do is take stupid potshots at people you don't like. That is a form of harassment, or fascistic behavior, jackass.

 

"fascistic moron" is not describing a behavior. It is a noun-phrase. Nice try though.

[j_b]

sigh

[JayB]

As far as your list of requirements is concerned - you are making the argument from personal incredulity. Pretty much the entire private workforce is engaged in employment that satisfies your criteria at this moment in time, even if neither you nor any other single intelligence can correctly identify or predict all of the factors that make the transmission-fluid plant more viable in Texas than Nigeria at this particular point in time.

 

As the composition of demand changes, so will the composition of employment. More people will stay employed if we allow the distribution of employment to respond to reality, than if we stick our fingers in our ears and deny it, or engage in futile attempts to predict it in the form of a "5 Year Plan."

 

20% of the American workforce is currently un or underemployed (just to get that out of the way). But what I'm personally incredulous about is that allowing the "distribution of employment to respond to reality" (aka the further commodification of labor through union busting, flexibilization, and corporate globalization, etc.) is going to result in better life-outcomes and democratic freedoms for the human beings that actually inhabit the theoretical marshmallow-world you concoct than one that incorporates features like coherent industrial policies, strong social welfare programs in health and education. Where is your track record of success, Jay? Point to the successes. We've been going down the neoliberal path for nearly thirty years. By almost any measure, we are practically ruined. Do you really expect us to believe that if we just push down your same path harder, we're going to reach the light? It's astonishing really, the power of your faith.

 

Allowing market mechanisms to function is what generates the economic output that the modern welfare state redistributes to fund things like social services.

 

This is easy to see when you take away or cripple the market mechanisms, but keep the redistribution. Shortly thereafter - there's not much to redistribute.

 

When redistributive mechanisms in place in any state generate distortions that start to significantly reduce output, and/or create liabilities that exceed the economy's capacity to fund them - then you get less output and less to redistribute. That's where Europe will find itself shortly.

 

Quite amusing to hear about the power of faith from a dialectical materialist, though!

[JayB]

the longer the folks who are attempting to show the market who's boss deny this the worse things will be for all concerned.

 

so, folks shouldn't try to tell the market who is boss yet they should tell the banksters threatening to sink our economy that they won't be bailed out. Did I get this right? Doesn't it strike you as contradictory?

 

 

Dude - they're the best friends that all of the private entities that bought bonds issued by the PIIGS ever had! These "eternal foes of the market" like bondholders so much they're willing to inflict the liabilities for every penny of losses on the said bonds on the public.

 

The public in any country that defaults is going to suffer, but they'll suffer quite a bit more if their governments foolishly commit them to repaying debts that are beyond their capacity to repay under any terms.

 

Defaulting on sovereign debt is disastrous. Committing to an impossible repayment regime and then defaulting is worse. Europe is going to have to default one way or another. Outright or by devaluing the Euro via inflation.

 

Ditto for Japan. The combination of exploding public sector debts and spending obligations and an imploding birth-rate means that people who have lent them money are going to take some losses, they're going to have work more, and longer, and live with less in retirement. There's no escape from this.

 

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

the longer the folks who are attempting to show the market who's boss deny this the worse things will be for all concerned.

 

so, folks shouldn't try to tell the market who is boss yet they should tell the banksters threatening to sink our economy that they won't be bailed out. Did I get this right? Doesn't it strike you as contradictory?

 

 

 

 

Dude - they're the best friends that all of the private entities that bought bonds issued by the PIIGS ever had! These "eternal foes of the market" like bondholders so much they're willing to inflict the liabilities for every penny of losses on the said bonds on the public.

 

The public in any country that defaults is going to suffer, but they'll suffer quite a bit more if their governments foolishly commit them to repaying debts that are beyond their capacity to repay under any terms.

 

Defaulting on sovereign debt is disastrous. Committing to an impossible repayment regime and then defaulting is worse. Europe is going to have to default one way or another. Outright or by devaluing the Euro via inflation.

 

Ditto for Japan. The combination of exploding public sector debts and spending obligations and an imploding birth-rate means that people who have lent them money are going to take some losses, they're going to have work more, and longer, and live with less in retirement. There's no escape from this.

 

 

Dude, it's all because the rich aren't paying their fair share! Just tax them and everything can be paid off!

[prole]

the longer the folks who are attempting to show the market who's boss deny this the worse things will be for all concerned.

 

so, folks shouldn't try to tell the market who is boss yet they should tell the banksters threatening to sink our economy that they won't be bailed out. Did I get this right? Doesn't it strike you as contradictory?

 

 

Dude - they're the best friends that all of the private entities that bought bonds issued by the PIIGS ever had! These "eternal foes of the market" like bondholders so much they're willing to inflict the liabilities for every penny of losses on the said bonds on the public.

 

The public in any country that defaults is going to suffer, but they'll suffer quite a bit more if their governments foolishly commit them to repaying debts that are beyond their capacity to repay under any terms.

 

Defaulting on sovereign debt is disastrous. Committing to an impossible repayment regime and then defaulting is worse. Europe is going to have to default one way or another. Outright or by devaluing the Euro via inflation.

 

Ditto for Japan. The combination of exploding public sector debts and spending obligations and an imploding birth-rate means that people who have lent them money are going to take some losses, they're going to have work more, and longer, and live with less in retirement. There's no escape from this.

 

So pure. So chaste.

 

Let the markets rip, deregulate, self-correction, the whole nine yards, in the real existing world, mind you...till the whole porta-potty explodes...then walk away without a speck of shit on 'ya, sayin' "I told you so". Get bent, Jay.

[JayB]

Where is your track record of success, Jay?

 

[video:youtube]

[prole]

Nice try. What should actually be under consideration is your particular brand of capitalism, the most recent iteration of which can be dated from the late-1970s to the present and can't even be deemed successful in its own terms.

 

Metric-- Golden Age / Washington Consensus

Average global growth 4.8% / 3.2%

Average global inflation 3.9% / 3.2%

Unemployment (US) 4.8% / 6.1%

Unemployment (France) 1.2% / 9.5%

Unemployment (Germany) 3.1% / 7.5%

 

-from here.

Edited December 2, 2010 by prole

[j_b]

To be fair to Jay, the upper 1% of the income bracket have never done better to the detriment of everybody else since the late 70's. It ought to count for something.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

To be fair to Jay, the upper 1% of the income bracket have never done better to the detriment of everybody else since the late 70's. It ought to count for something.

 

Every Democrat in congress is in the top 1% of the income bracket.

 

Just saying.

[JayB]

The world is far healthier, wealthier, and longer lived now than it was in the mid-70's.

 

Don't think there'd be many volunteers willing to hop in a time-travel machine to take them back to any point and time between 1945 and 1975, particularly amongst the countries in the sick-and-poor quadrant.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

The world is far healthier, wealthier, and longer lived now than it was in the mid-70's.

 

Don't think there'd be many volunteers willing to hop in a time-travel machine to take them back to any point and time between 1945 and 1975, particularly amongst the countries in the sick-and-poor quadrant.

 

Prole is dreaming about the glorious 50's - the Golden Age of American Capitalism!