War

[W]

no, quah (aka- the world capitol of bad traffic and over californicator-ized strip shopping mall hell) is my dad's/occasional bivi/mailing address. Got a rental basement in Sea town.

Now, I could get on board with knocking the shit outta some ice. Wheres that arctic front when we need it?

[panther]

Too bad. Was willing to drive to the Quah, but Seatown is waaay out there. I'd like to hear about 't.i.s.' over some beer. I'll bring SH. Check your PM's.

[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: panther ]

[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: panther ]

[W]

It's a deal.

you me and homey. Tell Halling to bring some good crack ho's from the hood.

[panther]

Ghetto Hoochies IS Hallings specialty. Soon.

[Fairweather]

mtnranger,

don't let the second-guessers on this site like "Sexual Chocolate", or "W" get you down! As a climber for over 20 years it has been exasperating being associated in any way with the "university hippie, WTO protester, eco freak" stereotype that is justifiably out there amongst the general public. I'm so fed up with these commie-idealists that I am no longer willing to overlook their peutred beliefs when selecting climbing partners.

I have climbed with SF personnel on many occasions and always find their company on a climb far superior to that of some babbling, whining poly-sci kook.

I salute your dedication to our (yes, GREAT!) country and wish you success and a safe return should you be sent to fight.

God's speed mtn ranger!

[nolanr]

How much effort should we put into understanding the motivations of terrorist attackers, or even non-terrorists who don't like us or our foreign policies? Don't know the answer to that. Part of the problem is, we're looking at 3rd world countries ruled by oppressive governments (or pseudo govts.) and it's oh-so convenient to turn the U.S. and the rest of the west into the Great Satan to give focus to the unrest and angst of their people, so that that focus isn't turned onto the oppressive government. Undoubtedly there is propaganda here, and manipulation of the population by the gov't and media, but I think it is far worse in the Middle East. Also, if so many from the Middle East truly loathe us, why do so many attend our universities or immigrate here? 'Cause it's a lot better than what they left behind. I think it gets overstated sometimes how much the average Middle Easterner hates the U.S. I bet there's some Afghanis that aren't too sad the Taliban is running away from most of their strongholds w/ their tails between their legs right now.

[W]

Fairweather-

FYI, I haven't taken part in a protest of any kind, including at the UW during the Gulf War when I had plenty of chances-were I so inclined.

And Commie? Give me a break. Is everything you hear that confuses you a communist viewpoint? For the record, communism is a backwards-ass religion that replaces a deity with the State as God, and the "revolution" that the freaky types in such local organizations as the RCP promote merely proposes to throw out those in power and replace them with another group (them) who are disenchanted with their own plight and at the same time equally hungry for power...which explains why communism has always resulted in totalitarianism. So get off that trip.

And unlike the liberal, I don't have an agenda or the desire to enforce my values upon you. That's part of what makes liberals intolerable to so many people, myself included. It's not my concern what you think or do. I've only posted here because it is an open forum and therefore everyone's thoughts are invited. And, I am not only not personally (important distinction) content with the assertion that war every few years is inevitable, no matter how hopeless or "idealist" that sounds, but I feel that much of the world-myself included- is living under false values and illusions that have created the conflict ridden mess we have now. I'm not proposing or giving or forcing on you any "plan" to fix it; that's what you want to hear-but even if I had one it would have no value to you if you didn't see what I was seeing. I'm merely suggesting that it might be useful to question the values we all take for granted. That questioning is purely an individual matter, yet as our actions as individuals have an expanding affect upon the world, it is something that I feel is vital to happen if the world is ever to move away from the violence and war to which we currently have and know no alternatives.

But hey, if you like the world just the way it is, then live in it with all of it's atrocities as well as it's beauty. Just don't act so horrified and surprised and angry when death and destruction cycle themselves through again, because doing what we are doing now as humans, it will happen again. We make the world what it is, but what is made can be unmade. Not according to any pattern, but I think through total perception and sensitivity towards ourselves and each other. But that's just my truth and it's shit to you. So be it. As far as I'm concerned, if I can live that truth, then you and I won't antagonize one another and that is the start of something greater. And I couldn't care less if you think that's impossible or idealist. An ideal is only an ideal if you refuse to live by it.

As for your choice of climbing partners, just who have you been climbing with anyway? Have you been trolling the old Blue Moon Tavern or the UW HUB offices for climbing partners? And why would you or they be wasting energy talking politics while trying to pull down or stay alive in the mountains? Tell them to save this crap for the chat boards. That's why we're getting our shit talking done now, eh? And that's all it is, anyway- don't take it too seriously. Over and out.

[Fairweather]

W,

glad to hear you're not a lefty or a liberal. Actually, I'm quite happy with the progress made in this world. Despite the doom and gloom crowd's twisted statistics, more people are living a better life on this planet than at any time in history. Sure, we could do better, but is that our (USA) sole responsibility? I say stop blaming the USA for all the ills in this world. Frankly, I couldn't give a rip about the grievances of Muslims, "Paestinians", the Arab world in general. While I am interested in improving the living standards of those in other countries, I am not interested if it means lowering mine. Flame away! It won't change my mind one bit.

When I hear second guessing babble in the media, on college campuses,and yours, I get a bit upset. Some of the "lets just step back and all take a deep breath" crowd that post here remind me of a climber that makes the decision to jump a crevasse, but just as they start their lunge they hesitate, and all is lost. Fortunately the vast majority of the citizens in this country aren't interested in any "hesitation" either.

[mountainguy01]

Fairweather,

I see in a great deal of your posts that you talk a lot about college campuses. Where do you get these "twisted statistics" that the majority of college campuses are these liberal state of minds. Do colleges not make us one of the most educated nations in the world, and would we be as free without these higher institutions of education? If Evergreen or Western always enters your mind, there are not just liberal people on campuses. If these thoughts come from the media, of course they are going to show the "good" stuff people want to hear even if it is a minute part of a college campus, which most of the time it is. You hear about the anti-war protest, but do you hear about the pro-war rallies?

[haireball]

how did the WTC and Pentagon get hit in the first place? the pilots who flew those suicide missions were, according to the information the FBI and CIA have made public, pretty much all illegal aliens. they wouldn't even have been in the U.S. if our elected and appointed leaders had been enforcing laws already on the books. but, in the aftermath, have we closed our borders? have we deported every illegal alien? are our flight schools still accepting trainees employed by Saudi Arabia Air? (the employer of several of the suicide flyers, according to FBI and CIA reports). these actions would cost no additional American lives. they are "no-brainers", yet I don't here about them being implemented...

I believe in self-defense - but I know of no self-defense system based solely upon attacking one's opponent. In every self-defense system which I have investigated, attacking your opponent is the tactic of LAST resort - to be employed only when every other option has been tried, and has failed. What other options have been tried?

I have enjoyed close friendships with a number of ex-special-forces gentlemen - three SEALs, several rangers, a couple of Green Beanies (all from the VietNam era - I'm dating myself). I find it interesting that not one of these men will admit to ever killing anyone except as a last resort in self-defense. And when any one of them does acknowledge having killed, it is only that: an acknowledgement - almost as if he is embarrassed about having had to resort to violence. It's difficult for me to reconcile the uniform attitude I've observed among these WARRIORS with the silly spray I read on this thread. But maybe these guys have just gotten old and soft, huh?

[Sean_Halling]

Hummm...thats funny...I always remember that the best defense is a good offense. Since defense is not part of the Ranger mission I don't see how you would shoot (kill) in defense only. Mntnrngr...they teaching you guys to kill only in defense now? Thats not the way I remember the Ranger Batts. Anyways Panther...who are you and why do you talk about me? One thing I fins funny is "W" may be a hippy but I bet he's flown in more Army helicopters than anyone here combined except the Cpt., Mtnrgr, and that Mike Adam guy. Well I gotta get back to searching for those crack ho's...times a wasting.

[Sean_Halling]

Oh yea Cpt. I'm doing some push-ups just for you right now. No LOM log around so I'm using the LOM couch.

[Fairweather]

quote:

---

Originally posted by mountainguy01:

Fairweather,

I see in a great deal of your posts that you talk a lot about college campuses. Where do you get these "twisted statistics" that the majority of college campuses are these liberal state of minds. Do colleges not make us one of the most educated nations in the world, and would we be as free without these higher institutions of education? If Evergreen or Western always enters your mind, there are not just liberal people on campuses. If these thoughts come from the media, of course they are going to show the "good" stuff people want to hear even if it is a minute part of a college campus, which most of the time it is. You hear about the anti-war protest, but do you hear about the pro-war rallies?

---

Don't mean to come down so hard on colleges...you are right, they ARE a cornerstone of our free society. However there is a vocal minority at some universities that gets covered my the media and, unfortunately the stereotype is cast. Most of these "idealists" will go out into the real world and become Joe Citizen. Some will hang on to the fringe.

The liberal and conservative media both have a stake in reporting this campus unrest. For the liberals it harkens back to their Vietnam protest college days. Many journalists came of age during this period. For the conservatives it is a means by which they can point out their perceived shortcomings in the American ed system.

While I'll admit to a conservative bias, I do see the greater good in the university system as well. Now; tell me more about this pro-war demonstration??!! At WWU?

[sexual_chocolate]

First of all, let me apologize to mtnrgr for my comment about Rudyard Kipling. It was a bit cutting, I'd have to say.

And secondly, it has become quite obvious that people will believe what they want to believe, and for most, this is non-negotiable. It certainly seems apparent on this thread. At this point, it has become too much of a chore to keep responding to individuals whose only interest is to keep trumpeting their own prejudices and (violent!) tendencies! Yes, we have now successfully moved into the "all protesters are bad", "college campuses are breeding grounds for liberals", and even "beat up the protesters" realm. How truly enlightened and refreshing! But also eye-opening. I can honestly say that I had NO IDEA that such recalcitrantly violent jingoists actually existed in the climbing community. I realize that this topic stirs up passion, but when people actually started making physical threats against individuals they disagree with, well, it blew my mind. I am actually starting to think that perhaps Rush Limbaugh is really a nw climber masquerading as a talk-show host. I guess I got the answer to my original question, and then some. Hey, and that's ok. I learned some stuff. Thought about some things differently. Developed some respect for a few individuals and where they are coming from.

And finally, I came even more firmly to the conclusion that violence is not the answer to any problem. The proponents of violent responses seem to be quite violent themselves, so the cycle just seems to perpetuate itself ad nauseum. History shows this to be true, for anyone willing to look. Luckily I have seen alternatives to violence in my own life, so perhaps this gives me the ability to respond differently than perhaps some others.

So, as I sign off from this thread, I wish all of you peace and happiness in your lives. My prayers are with you.

[Cpt.Caveman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sean Halling:

Hummm...thats funny...I always remember that the best defense is a good offense. Since defense is not part of the Ranger mission I don't see how you would shoot (kill) in defense only. Mntnrngr...they teaching you guys to kill only in defense now? Thats not the way I remember the Ranger Batts. Anyways Panther...who are you and why do you talk about me? One thing I fins funny is "W" may be a hippy but I bet he's flown in more Army helicopters than anyone here combined except the Cpt., Mtnrgr, and that Mike Adam guy. Well I gotta get back to searching for those crack ho's...times a wasting.

---

Werd Up Sean! Salutijng you on bustin crack ho's Now everybody let's go out and rent Apolypse Now tonight!

[Dru]

Afhghanistan now.

Iraq next week?

[W]

Fairweather, you're right- the rest of the world shares an equal responsibility, the onus is not all upon the USA. I at least am not even pretending to blame all of the worlds problems on the USA; in fact, it is not a matter of placing "blame" on anyone. Rather, we're inquiring into our problems, which I think requires suspending all judgement- at least for the moment- to be able to determine what is true and what is false. If you're looking at something from an assumption or a platform, you're examination is doomed to be prejudiced. Sounds like hesitation, you say, but it's actually an instantaneous action- and either you see it, or you don't. If you don't see it, then throw it away!

If it seems that my message is "picking on" the US, try to consider it this way- while the rest of the world shares an equal responsibility, the fact that someone else is misbehaving does not absolve us of our own responsibilities.It seems to me that if we really love our country and our way of life, we will be wholly concerned with changing ourselves as individuals to ensure that we are not contributing to furthering our problems- irregardless of what the other person is doing. I believe 100 percent in the ability of our actions to expand outward to the rest of the world. If you say that this will invite enemies to attack us-I say that is not a problem. We will know the difference between defending ourselves and defending our beliefs. That doesn't mean we sit back and let people invade and shoot at us, and it doesn't mean we go have a hug-in with terrorists. Terrorists, antagonists, enemies of humanity will be destroyed when the ideological battles we fight, not on the battlefield, but in our heads, come to an end. It's a tired cliche, but it starts with yourself. But only if you see it. No one can or should "convince" you.

And you're right, Fairweather- I think the world has come a long way. But I'm suggesting, take it leave it, that discontent is not a state of negativity, rather it is a state in which the capacity to discover something new is fully enabled, if we do not try to kill that discontent, the urge to question, that is in every one of us at birth, and instead live right with it. The urge to be content and satisfied, to "arrive" in heaven or nirvana or whatever, might we what is killing us all. But that's just an assertion. That's all it is.

alright enough already.

Halling! Get your beer mug out! Have you found us some good company? I want a full report.

[mikeadam]

Sexual Chocolate-So you've found some alternatives to violence in your life have you? Well ain't that sweet!

Just make sure you bend down and kiss Mountain Rangers feet for his current service so that you can lean smugly back from your computer and proclaim yourself a pacifist.

When Osama comes looking for you, Mountain Ranger and the others will have to be sure to step aside so you and OBL can have a dialog on how peace, pot, and microdot are going to alter the course of our countries collective realities. It is his and others service that have ENTITLED you to your bubble of complacent pacificism. But hey, it's your right because of the freedom umbrella they are providing you. It's your Consciounsce you have to live with.

Hairy one. Many of the people you see posting on this thread are veterans of more recent combat experiences from Panama to Desert Storm/Shield to Somalia and others. Did you forget that right down the road is an SF group, a Ranger Battalion and several contingents of active duty infantry regiments? Quite a few persons get out and hang around the neighborhood. Much like your Vietnam era friends. I can't imagine that your friends were any less gung ho when they were 19.

Because someone has a youthful and ignorant idea of what fighting in combat is all about and then goes and see firsthand, does the fact that someone 30 years ago faced the same trevails invalidate the younger generations own committment? Let sleeping dogs lie. There was not one person I served with that did not regularly make mention of the fact they were there because they felt some kind of debt to the men and women who served previously and wanted to earn Freedom on their own terms whether that was as an airman, a sailor or a grunt. We take nothing from the Vietnam era veterans and offer only our own meager contributions to the country.

Warriors come in many shapes, sizes, and temperments.

[Sean_Halling]

Cpt. I'm not out busting crack ho's....I'm looking to help them help our declining economy. W, the only person I could find that will meet up to your standards was Panther's mom.

[W]

How many teeth does she have?

What's the status of Team Gander Mountain?

[Sean_Halling]

No teeth....Backcountry can you answer that last question?

[Sean_Halling]

Hey I just found a ho for Panther.....the Rainier master Mary!

[panther]

Get back on the LOM couch until I get tired Halling!

[W]

Mary- you mean THE climbing ranger Mary.

Yes, she will do.

[Fairweather]

W,

Although I disagree on your finer points, your opinions sound well thought out. I should not have cast such a wide net with my condemnation.

I'll save that for Sexual Chocolate:

I guess, Ms. Chocolate we can't all be as enlightened as you perceive yourself to be. Maybe we're just not as evolved as you. Or maybe we're just all part of the "great unwashed", not even aware of the higher plane upon which you exist. Maybe those of us who desire to defend ourselves and our great country and give in to our animal aggression and self preservation instincts will one day find ourselves shipped off in rail cars to some gulag by you and your ilk. Do ya think?

Yes, a well earned personal attack. But then it was your "trolling" that started this "spray" thread...careful what you wish for.