"Spill. Baby. Spill"

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Um, I think you might have missed one little detail in that photo...

 

you are surprised?

[j_b]

Interesting chart JayB. I've been to both of those country's and it strikes me as incorrect. The Netherlands is a small energy efficient country, everyone is riding bikes, the cars they have are small and public transit is great and well utilized. At least that was my previous belief. Norway is larger, but folks aren't driving all around and have well insulated dwellings.

 

Something is rotten in Denmark with that chart I'd bet.

 

It's because you are predictably buying the "per unit GDP" normalization of oil consumption. Just think about what makes up the GDP and how it relates to energy consumption. Right, the insurance and financial sectors and all these loans that nobody can afford are also part of this GDP. This is classic snake oil.

[j_b]

It's because you are predictably buying the "per unit GDP" normalization of oil consumption. Just think about what makes up the GDP and how it relates to energy consumption. Right, the insurance and financial sectors and all these loans that nobody can afford are also part of this GDP. This is classic snake oil.

 

Especially when you consider that much heavy industrial production (what usually consumes large amount of energy) has been shipped to developing nations. Complete snake oil.

[Jim]

So does the planet care if the petroleum gets sucked out to be burned in a Southern Televangelists V-12 powered, Bible-themed hot-rod or to power a danish performance artists conservation-themed LED installation?

 

the "planet" cares about how much oil you use that you could avoid using. We have at least twice as far to go in this domain as any other nation among developed nations, thanks in part to your oil corporation shilling ways.

 

Nah - I'm pretty sure that it's just total global consumption that matters, which is a direct function of wealth. The more output people generate, the more money people have to fund consumption, and the more they consume. The reason that Greeks don't use much energy isn't because of their superior virtue, it's because they don't generate enough output to buy as much.

 

When you look at energy consumption per unit GDP, which is a much better proxy for efficiency than simple per-capita consumption metrics, the picture looks a bit different. Below is a plot of energy consumption per-unit-GDP....

 

 

 

 

 

Time for you to start hectoring the Norweigans and the Dutch....

 

I don't know about this one. We get a big boost from what? - Finance was 24% of GDP last year and we know where that led to - so we get extra points for the paper shuffling wall street types. Also - EU is way ahead of us in renewable energy production - 9% from wind, solar, and marine energy (wind,tidal, wave) with agressive mandates to reach 20% by 2020. They are way ahead of us in conservation and renewable energy production. And here's another way to look at it:

 

 

 

[j_b]

I don't know about this one. We get a big boost from what? - Finance was 24% of GDP last year and we know where that led to - so we get extra points for the paper shuffling wall street types.

 

also consider that consumption is 70% of GDP and we all know how much of that is sustainable without debt that JayB otherwise likes to scare us with.

[Nitrox]

and the drivel goes on ...

So stop posting.

[j_b]

is that all you've got?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

So does the planet care if the petroleum gets sucked out to be burned in a Southern Televangelists V-12 powered, Bible-themed hot-rod or to power a danish performance artists conservation-themed LED installation?

 

the "planet" cares about how much oil you use that you could avoid using. We have at least twice as far to go in this domain as any other nation among developed nations, thanks in part to your oil corporation shilling ways.

 

Nah - I'm pretty sure that it's just total global consumption that matters, which is a direct function of wealth. The more output people generate, the more money people have to fund consumption, and the more they consume. The reason that Greeks don't use much energy isn't because of their superior virtue, it's because they don't generate enough output to buy as much.

 

When you look at energy consumption per unit GDP, which is a much better proxy for efficiency than simple per-capita consumption metrics, the picture looks a bit different. Below is a plot of energy consumption per-unit-GDP....

 

 

 

 

 

Time for you to start hectoring the Norweigans and the Dutch....

 

I don't know about this one. We get a big boost from what? - Finance was 24% of GDP last year and we know where that led to - so we get extra points for the paper shuffling wall street types. Also - EU is way ahead of us in renewable energy production - 9% from wind, solar, and marine energy (wind,tidal, wave) with agressive mandates to reach 20% by 2020. They are way ahead of us in conservation and renewable energy production. And here's another way to look at it:

 

 

 

So, what would it take for us to be more like the Japanese? And what would the cost be to us (the down-side)?

[j_b]

at least little suburban sprawl, end of mac-mansions, not eat meat at every meal, massive investment in public transit, energy conservation, ...

[KaskadskyjKozak]

not eat meat at every meal, ...

 

you hypocrite!

[j_b]

there is no real downside to societal decrease in oil energy use for most of us

[KaskadskyjKozak]

there is no real downside to societal decrease in oil energy use for most of us

 

You're a moron.

 

And I wasn't talking to you. Jim, at least, can articulate a point without blathering endless propaganda about "free-market snake oil shilling" with every other syllable.

 

Now STFU.

[Nitrox]

Except that by "you" you really mean "everyone else".

 

Wag your finger, run your mouth, blame everyone else...hypocrite.

[j_b]

It looks as if the neanderthals don't like my speaking frankly to them.

[prole]

GO LIVE IN A HERMIT HOLE!! THEN WE'LL TALK!

[Nitrox]

It looks as if the neanderthals don't like my speaking frankly to them.

 

You're intentionally being vague and evasive...you're lying.

[j_b]

come on fuck-ups, why don't you make another joke about bicycle commuters who "want to live in caves"? it has been your MO for eons, and now here you are whining about being held accountable for your policy disasters. Laughable.

[Jim]

So, what would it take for us to be more like the Japanese? And what would the cost be to us (the down-side)?

 

I'm not sure the Japanese are the role model but you are correct that the question has to be asked on a large scale, and we haven't even begun that discussion yet. There will be changes associated with a large energy plan and transition. But - and this is a key point - it's going to happen anyway and it's better to get going ASAP rather than be jolted by the coming changes.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

come on fuck-ups, why don't you make another joke about bicycle commuters who "want to live in caves"?

 

I'm a bike commuter and you said I'm a neanderthal. So I guess it's you saying bike commuters want to live in caves.

 

You hypocrite!

[KaskadskyjKozak]

So, what would it take for us to be more like the Japanese? And what would the cost be to us (the down-side)?

 

I'm not sure the Japanese are the role model but you are correct that the question has to be asked on a large scale, and we haven't even begun that discussion yet. There will be changes associated with a large energy plan and transition. But - and this is a key point - it's going to happen anyway and it's better to get going ASAP rather than be jolted by the coming changes.

 

There's a grouping of folks with lower GDP and comparable (to the Japanese) usage. What would it take to be in their position of usage, and what would that cost entail? I'd like to know what the alternatives are before agreeing to a plan to get there.

 

 

[Nitrox]

come on fuck-ups, why don't you make another joke about bicycle commuters who "want to live in caves"?

 

I'm a bike commuter and you said I'm a neanderthal. So I guess it's you saying bike commuters want to live in caves.

 

You hypocrite!

 

Same.

 

I think J_B has forgotten the nature of climbing forums. He seams desperate for people to listen to him.

 

 

[j_b]

LOLZ I hope you didn't pop anything to come up with that one.

[Jim]

I don't think it's possible to know exactly how it's going to end up - but I can say with some confidence that it will be pretty ugly if we don't get our ass in gear soon while the rest of the world is making a good run at it.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

I think J_B has forgotten the nature of climbing forums.

 

 

Not a surprise. I doubt he climbs.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I don't think it's possible to know exactly how it's going to end up - but I can say with some confidence that it will be pretty ugly if we don't get our ass in gear soon while the rest of the world is making a good run at it.

 

Well, it's kind of important to figure that out, don't you think?