proper self arrest question

[medicsandy]

Last year I hired a guide for my first climb. Part way up we stopped on a snow field so he could teach me some basic techniques. He taught me that when I self arrest, after digging my ice axe in, I should kick my feet into the snow, as hard as I can. This was with crampons on. Now I'm reading and being told that if you are wearing crampons, you should raise your feet up to avoid the toe picks catching. Would love to hear what you have to say on this one, so I don't get hurt out there.

Thanks!

[genepires]

It matters how fast you are going. If you are catching your falling partner, then by all means, kick in the feet. if you are sliding slowly (relative of course) then use the feet to prevent you from getting to going too fast. if you are going fast, use the knees and pray that the runout is ok because that is where you are going. it is all about breaking your ankles. is the self arrest worth it?

 

if you are using crampons, you really have to think about the consequences of your partner falling or your own chance of falling. Since the snow is hard, you will slide REALLY fast REALLY quick.

 

 

If you are cramponing and you doubt your ability to not fall over, then you need a running belay or standard belay.

Edited January 8, 2010 by genepires

[ketch]

So the real divider here is to look at where and when you are arresting here. If you are wearing crampons then do not arrest with your toes. But as soon as you slow down or stop then definatley kick yourself a good hole to hang on with.

[Dane]

Gene has it pretty well covered. But let me add, in general, no, I would not suggest sticking your crampons in unless or until you are completely stopped.

 

Dropping into self arrest to catch a partner is one thing (crampons down and in if it is a top rope fall you can catch)....trying to stop yourself in self arrest is a totally different situation (feet up until you are stopped).

 

Worse case scenario is trying to catch a leader fall with a self arrest while climbing together roped on a running belay.

 

It is not just a case of breaking ankles or legs, which you can easily do if you are trying to get yourself stopped. And it won't take much. A bad fall can do a whole lot more. I've seen two accidents where crampons got hooked in self arrest and the climber was literally flipped over and totally lost control when the slide were almost totally stopped by a self arrest. A few seconds more of self arrest and the slide would have been of no or little consequence. Being a little quick setting their feet turned these incidents into total FU's with serious injuries.

 

I have the scars to prove it from one of them where a 30' slide turned into a 1500' slide Any kind of fall with crampons on will get serious fast if you don't get yourself stopped almost immediatly. Think prevention and a rope as Gene suggested as a better technique to learn and use when required.

 

 

[ivan]

best advice is don't fall - even on pretty easy shit carry an extra axe or pole in your other hand to enhance stabilty and observe rule #1

[genepires]

If for some really strange reason, you have crampons on while on sloppy snow, then the crampons won't be a problem (maybe) as they will (maybe) slice through the snow. But if it is sloppy, then the knees should work OK also without the hazard. Heck, if it is sloppy snow, you could spread out in a snow angel and stop pretty quick.

 

I am a big fan of the 1 axe and 1 pole method of travel and observing rule #1. Unfortunately many have not.

[genepires]

Hey Sandy, it sounds like your guide/instructor was teaching you how to get setup to catch a fall from another rope team member and not how to arrest your own fall. (they are two different beasts) Is that correct?

[montypiton]

between Genepires and Dane, you have a fairly complete and accurrate answer to your question, so I would just repeat: if you're all but stopped, or not yet really moving, go ahead and use your front points to help hold. if you're already sliding fast, use your knees - your frontpoints could flip you if they suddenly catch.

[Dane]

Hey Sandy, it sounds like your guide/instructor was teaching you how to get setup to catch a fall from another rope team member and not how to arrest your own fall. (they are two different beasts) Is that correct?

 

Wondered that myself. Would seem the only answer that makes sense.

[Dan_Miller]

Dane, Gene, Ivan and Monty all are suppling 'state of the art'

technique and advise. Catching one's front points and swiftly flipping head over heels ia a real posssiblity in firm snow. I've seen it happen and it's not a pretty sight, pretty sickening really. Heed what they're saying.

[medicsandy]

Thank you all so much for the replys. You've definately made things more clear. We were taught both catching a fall from someone else and also self arrest. We weren't going very fast. The one thing we were not warned about was the falling fast/crampon catching thing. I'm really glad I asked. We were taught to use our axe and also one pole. Again, glad I asked and thanks for helping out a beginner!