Sportextreame

[Neri]

In Barrabes tradition of sites, this one is from Denmark. The good thing is, for any item above $100, if you pay in addition to the shipping $15, they will take care of all customs and duty charges for you. The address is www.sportextreme.com

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Neri Carmi

nericarmi@yahoo.com

[This message has been edited by Neri (edited 08-18-2001).]

[tasmith513]

I know its very tempting to shop these sort of sites because the deals are so great. But just understand that the more popular they become, the more the small local gear shop suffers. Small shops simply cannot compete with these sites, especially when you can get certain items off the site for less than the retailer can get them at wholesale!! So, since many of the "little guys" are owned and run by fellow climbers, do them a favor by not shopping through these web sites.

PS: But I would have no problem if REI went out of business

[hakioawa]

That is ridiculous!

Essentially what you are saying is. Pay more to support your local climbers. Why not put a big tip jar next to the cash register. Or a "Will climb for food" sign.

Of course I'm going to buy something at the cheaps place. Do you know how much mark up there is on gear! Not just at the retail level. Sure the little shops may not get too much of it, but so what? How much do you really think a cam costs to make? Buying gear from the cheapest place has the effect of increasing the amount of gear people buy, hence increasing profits for the manufacturer. In the long run everyone wins because there are fewer middle men and the manufactures can take smaller margins. Yes, some shops will go out of business. Too bad.

And why is everybody so down on REI? Good selection, OK prices and decent gear. Don't like it? Go to Jim Nelson's shop. The climbing community in the Northwest would be a very different and less interesting place were in not for the like of large organizations like REI and the Mountaineers.

[tasmith513]

hakiowa,

Easy man, I wasn't looking for a fight. I'm not suggesting for a complete boycott of sites like barrabes or sportextreme. In all honesty, if I was in the market for a really expensive piece of gear, like say, ice tools, I'd probably shop barrabas too, because I certainly don't have a very heavy wallet. Technical climbing goods don't have a huge margin anyway for retailers, so they wouldn't make that much money off my purchase in this case anyway. All I was doing with my post was to raise the point that these sites DO have a negative impact on retailers. From what I understand (I'm sure someone out there knows more about this than me--Fat Kid?), sellers in Europe can get away with smaller margins because the market is just so much larger there than it is here. That is why you can buy a pair of La Sportiva boots direct from these sites often for LESS than shops in the US can buy them wholesale. The reasons I advocate supporting small gear shops are similar to why I try to avoid buying guidebooks published by Falcon or any other large publisher whenever I can. I'd rather buy from the local guy, and have my money go back into the local climbing community to help with crag upkeep and the like.

I know I'm not exactly the biggest advocate for cut-throat capitalism in the world (in fact, if you called me a communist I'd probably be flattered), but I just believe it is worth it to sometimes go out of the way to support the little guy--in any market, not just climbing. It isn't charity, it just helps keep the playing field level, and also gives poor, lazy college kids like myself a cool place to work in the summer!

[fleblebleb]

So what small, local shops are we talking about? Most of the shops I regularly go to around Seattle have some kind of niche and may not really be that threatened by mail-order. The Marmot store and Feathered Friends both sport their own brands of very high quality gear, if their prices can be beat by mail-order from Europe then they basically deserve to lose business. Both also do a lot of rentals. Second Ascent does a lot of second-hand, which is a see-before-you-buy kind of thing. And Jim, well, if you catch him in a good mood he knows everything about climbing around here and what gear to take, which means great service - plus his prices are way low. I bought a summer sleeping bag in Vancouver about a month ago, Integral Designs which is Canadian, and paid about the same price I'd have paid Jim if he'd had the right size in stock. Maybe a little more even. What other stores are we talking about? Some of the gyms sell stuff, but that's obviously not what keeps them going.

Oh, and finally, sometimes you just need that piece of gear right now and then the local guy beats mail-order hands down. I wouldn't do mail order except if I had a fairly big order to make, in the hundreds of dollars, and I very rarely have that kind of money to spend on gear. It tends to be $10-50 every now and then, one more cam, one more hex, right before that trip when I just really, really need whatever size...

[To_The_Top]

Another thing, I like to support local shops too, and in my expierance if you tell your local shop about a price at another place (say REI), they match it or come close, and there is usually better service at the local shop. I shop at REI too, and second ascent (its like treasure hunting there. TTT

[Lambone]

quote:

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Originally posted by hakioawa:

That is ridiculous!

Essentially what you are saying is. Pay more to support your local climbers. Why not put a big tip jar next to the cash register. Or a "Will climb for food" sign.

Of course I'm going to buy something at the cheaps place. Do you know how much mark up there is on gear! Not just at the retail level. Sure the little shops may not get too much of it, but so what? How much do you really think a cam costs to make? Buying gear from the cheapest place has the effect of increasing the amount of gear people buy, hence increasing profits for the manufacturer. In the long run everyone wins because there are fewer middle men and the manufactures can take smaller margins. Yes, some shops will go out of business. Too bad.

And why is everybody so down on REI? Good selection, OK prices and decent gear. Don't like it? Go to Jim Nelson's shop. The climbing community in the Northwest would be a very different and less interesting place were in not for the like of large organizations like REI and the Mountaineers.

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hikerwa,

Hmmm... I'm not so sure that I'd agree with you here. If you want to go buy stuff from the cheaper .com companies, go right ahead. But be aware that certian brands do put alot of money into producing and testing camming devices. Also, in the outdoor retail industry, hardware has the lowest markup. Ussually no more than 40%, while soft goods and camping gear is allways marked up by 50%-65%. So when shops sell cams at special package prices they are ussually not making a whole lot of net profit, maybe 5 or 10%

I would agree that the northwest would be a very different place without REI and The Mountaineers. Whether or not it would be less interesting I guess depends on your idea of what is interesting. Personaly I don't find large groups of Mounties being dragged up the most classic,asthetic, and easily accessable routes very interesting, just annoying. I don't think that heards of newbies sporting shiny gear that have REI tags dangeling off of them are very interesting. And I wouldn't say that the most interesting climbers at the local sport crags are the ones who just learned how to lead from an REI salesman.

My point is that the marketing schemes of big companies like REI and countless others have comercialized and glamorized the mountains. They present the image that people who buy there gear can go out and do anything, safely. And they've succeded in drawing in countless costomers who would be better of playing golf.

This is only my ultra bias/snobby opinion. Disagree if you wish. Call me what you wil, but I'll still think that buisness sucks, and will avoid it at all costs. I realy do like newbies, as long as they respect the mountains more than their new shinny gear.

 

[laughingclimber]

I sure hate REI, too. I hate it how they usually have what you want, and how quick they answer the phone. I hate it that you can usually find several comparable items at a range of prices, but I especially hate the return policy. It is completely the fault of retail stores that routes are crowded, and has nothing to do with the fact that there are more people around than ever before. When I go out to climb The Tooth, those other people have no right whatsoever to spoil my 137th ascent. I can tell they suck by where they shop. When I shop, I let the salesperson know right away that I am nobodys fool. When I ask a question, it's only a way of letting the REI salesperson see how much I know. I don't want their opinion, I want their attention, because I have memorized the cross-section shear strength of all known ice-screws available, and if I can make that $7/hr employee look like a schmuck in front of a hot chick, all the better.

None of you people has the right to enjoy the mountains, 'cause you don't feel it like I do. When I am out climbing, I look and act nothing like you. I am so removed and isolated, I practically invented climbing. I am hip. I am cool. For once, I am one up on somebody.

[Lambone]

Now you are talking laughing climber!!!!!!

[Neri]

quote:

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Originally posted by laughingclimber:

I sure hate REI, too. I hate it how they usually have what you want, and how quick they answer the phone. I hate it that you can usually find several comparable items at a range of prices, but I especially hate the return policy. It is completely the fault of retail stores that routes are crowded, and has nothing to do with the fact that there are more people around than ever before. When I go out to climb The Tooth, those other people have no right whatsoever to spoil my 137th ascent. I can tell they suck by where they shop. When I shop, I let the salesperson know right away that I am nobodys fool. When I ask a question, it's only a way of letting the REI salesperson see how much I know. I don't want their opinion, I want their attention, because I have memorized the cross-section shear strength of all known ice-screws available, and if I can make that $7/hr employee look like a schmuck in front of a hot chick, all the better.

None of you people has the right to enjoy the mountains, 'cause you don't feel it like I do. When I am out climbing, I look and act nothing like you. I am so removed and isolated, I practically invented climbing. I am hip. I am cool. For once, I am one up on somebody.

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Hi Man

Saw you’re post on sportextreme issue. love your style of writing, although the truth is laying between you both.

I agree with any ones right to be on the mountain. But, having the top of the line gear, doesn’t earn you the right that experience dose. Of course a poor hungry climbing bum like me, will envy all of these rich and deep pocketed latest patagucci and armic’teryx wearers, and shiny BD and CM gear flashers, that the most impotent skill (experience) they don’t have but they have the money to look like one who knows.

Here they are going there, thinking that, all that top shelf gear that they just bought at REI or elsewhere for that manner will get them their most desirable summit dream. My complaint for the REI salespeople is, Yes the gear you sell, and the costumer buys, with no doubt, is the best money can buy; BUT, do you tell them that it won't do shit for them if they don’t know how to use it, or better yet how NOT to get themselves to a mess that will require the gear special properties. I think that, Here we all agree. We have the experience. We know how best, the gear can serve us and We, learned this through “trial and error” hence the word EXPERIENCE. But, because we don’t have much of “the source of all evil”( =MONEY ) we just look down…. with envy, disgust and recognition, that once long time ago we were some what similar to these humans who doing the most pathetic slog up the mountain with beautiful head to tow brand name shining new gear.

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Neri Carmi

nericarmi@yahoo.com

[This message has been edited by Neri (edited 08-19-2001).]

[Neri]

quote:

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Originally posted by Geoffo:

One thing to remember is that everyone, regardless of how cool you are, started out as a newbie....

Your gear was shiny, placements shaky, and probably a few close calls...

if your honest with yourself,most don't really have a clue for those first years huh?(I look back and I know I didn't!) Ya pay your dues and eventually make it, lets let those folks(newbies) do the same in peace.

If all those REI encouraged people quit climbing more used (great) gear for the rest of us!

Seriously too, don't worry about REI fear Walmart....

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read my post a little more carefully and the way I addressed it

[This message has been edited by Neri (edited 08-19-2001).]

[hakioawa]

WAIT A MINUTE!! You mean, there is more to this climbing thing then buying hundred of dollars of shiny new BD cams? You mean my inexperience cannot by overcome with a credit card. I had no idea? Wow being a newbie I sure have a lot to learn! And I though that buying good gear was ALL I needed to do! After all who should have thought that having a rack of 3 tied runners and two biners would be safer then buying a large leader rack that can stitch up any route with placements 4 feet apart!

I don't know where the idea that just because a newbie can afford the latest and greatest makes him/her ignorant. What makes you think people are not getting good instruction along with their new gear? What makes you thin k people do not know how to use their gear?

Oh and as far as markup. Yes I think 40-80% margins are quite high. I worked in the sporting goods business for 7 years (Alpine skiing not climbing). Everyone knows how hard it is for a little shop to make it. You must have a nitch. I think many of these shops make most of their profits off service (gear maintenance, rentals, instruction, guiding . . . ) rather than the hardgoods. In skiing (and I assume in climbing too) the manufactures have rules about how much you can sell their gear for and when. Ever wonder why you never see brand new skis at Costco? Because Costco would not be allowed to sell them below retail price. There is a reason a #1 camalot is $59.95. Outside a few selected times a year American stores are not permitted to sell them for less. In my mind this is price fixing. So a little competition from abroad is a good thing! I'd love to by all my gear from a local store, but the manufacturers make it hard.

 

[Neri]

quote:

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Originally posted by hakioawa:

WAIT A MINUTE!! You mean, there is more to this climbing thing then buying hundred of dollars of shiny new BD cams? You mean my inexperience cannot by overcome with a credit card. I had no idea? Wow being a newbie I sure have a lot to learn! And I though that buying good gear was ALL I needed to do! After all who should have thought that having a rack of 3 tied runners and two biners would be safer then buying a large leader rack that can stitch up any route with placements 4 feet apart!

I don't know where the idea that just because a newbie can afford the latest and greatest makes him/her ignorant. What makes you think people are not getting good instruction along with their new gear? What makes you thin k people do not know how to use their gear?

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You’ve got to see what’s going on in the crags sometimes, especially in holidays weekend

[This message has been edited by Neri (edited 08-19-2001).]

[Geoffo]

One thing to remember is that everyone, regardless of how cool you are, started out as a newbie....

Your gear was shiny, placements shaky, and probably a few close calls...

if your honest with yourself,most don't really have a clue for those first years huh?(I look back and I know I didn't!) Ya pay your dues and eventually make it, lets let those folks(newbies) do the same in peace.

If all those REI encouraged people quit climbing more used (great) gear for the rest of us!

Seriously too, don't worry about REI fear Walmart....