dberdinka Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Sometimes, not all the time, when rappelling or even belaying the rope will go absolutely nuts with twists. As you reach the ends there will be this massive clusterf%$k of corkscrewed rope. What happened? I don't think my technique is changing at all but clearly the rope is getting twisted as it passes through the rappell/belay device. I'm always using the same rap device (BD thingy) I'm curious what rappel method minimizes the twisting of ropes. Any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomtom Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Make sure the rope is going in the bottom of the rappel device and coming out the top (i.e. orient the rappel device so that the path of the rope is straight from anchor, through the belay device, and to your brake hand). And don't hold the rope at a right angle to the path of the rope through the belay device. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Yes, basically the answer is that your technique sucks and you are putting twists in the rope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketparrotlet Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 Sucks when you don't flake out the rope and you have to deal with that crap on belay... I learned that lesson really quick. -Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostCamKenny Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 I'm curious what rappel method minimizes the twisting of ropes. Any suggestions? I was under the impression that rappelling, period, twists the rope... maybe i'm wrong. Not sure I can share any insight into a rappel method that minimizes this, but what i do is after every few climbs I will lay out my rope in the living room of my place in really large loops - like from the bedroom down the hall to the kitchen or about 30 feet - and let it relax(I'll give it a beer too if it asks nicely ) . I also shake it out from my balcony, but this really irritates the old lady below me so I don't do it as often. These two things seem to work for me to get the twists out of my ropes and then when I'm climbing i have fewer twisting issues. Also, rappelling using a munter puts a devastating number of twists in your rope, so that would be something to avoid if you can... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhluhr Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 (edited) I'm curious what rappel method minimizes the twisting of ropes. Any suggestions? I was under the impression that rappelling, period, twists the rope... maybe i'm wrong. No, you're absolutely right. 95% of ropes out there have a kern-mantle construction. The kern (inner core) is the primary load bearing component of the rope. The mantle (outer sheath) is primarily for handling and protection. These two pieces are not bonded to each other. The construction of the kern is generally spiral while the mantle is generally a woven symmetrical design. This means that when they are heavily loaded and stretching, you get a relative torque between the kern and mantle. If the torque is great enough, it causes the mantle to slip on the kern. This produces pigtailing, regardless of flaking or proper handling. Certain types of belaying or rappelling can exacerbate rope twist while others minimize it, but it is near impossible to completely eliminate it. Edited October 13, 2009 by nhluhr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhluhr Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Oh and, there's a video out there that Mike Barter has linked to that details a special way to munter which twists the rope opposite the way the rope would normally twist and thus mitigates most of the pigtail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkporwit Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 No, you're absolutely right. 95% of ropes out there have a kern-mantle construction. The mantle (inner core) is the primary load bearing component of the rope. The kern (outer sheath) is primarily for handling and protection. I'm not convinced about some of the other things you said, but you definitely got the kern (inner core) and mantle (outer sheath) mixed up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Barter Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Oh and, there's a video out there that Mike Barter has linked to that details a special way to munter which twists the rope opposite the way the rope would normally twist and thus mitigates most of the pigtail. Not practical method or rapping unless off a single strand back to the ground in a emergency. Method is primarily for lowering and/or managing heavy loads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I don't know about the video, but whenever I use a Meunter (or is it "Munter") I find that I get absolutely no rope twist if I am using it to lower or belay from a fixed anchor at or above my stance. The key is that it only works this way when the load and control ends of the rope are both hanging down. If I rappel on a Meunter, I get a twisted rope. It is actually an excellent knot for lowering somebody. I used it in a rescue situation once, very much to the astonishment of one of the accident victims who expected some use of their gris gris. As to the original inquiry? I have minimal problems with my ATC guide. Given my experience with the Meunter, though, I suspect that a minimal re-orientation of the brake hand, or maybe the addition or subraction of an extra leg twist (changing the way the rope feeds into the brake), or maybe the addition of an extra 'biner or different attachment point for the brake biner (changing the way the rope feeds out of the brake) or something similar to that may be the cause of "sometimes I get the twisty's and sometimes not." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhluhr Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 No, you're absolutely right. 95% of ropes out there have a kern-mantle construction. The mantle (inner core) is the primary load bearing component of the rope. The kern (outer sheath) is primarily for handling and protection. I'm not convinced about some of the other things you said, but you definitely got the kern (inner core) and mantle (outer sheath) mixed up You're right. We should just call it core and sheath. Fixed my post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostCamKenny Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 As to the original inquiry? I have minimal problems with my ATC guide. I second that... and my Kong Ghost is pretty good too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Barter Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 No, you're absolutely right. 95% of ropes out there have a kern-mantle construction. The mantle (inner core) is the primary load bearing component of the rope. The kern (outer sheath) is primarily for handling and protection. I'm not convinced about some of the other things you said, but you definitely got the kern (inner core) and mantle (outer sheath) mixed up You're right. We should just call it core and sheath. Fixed my post. My guess is that the german to english translation would be core and sheath. Cordelette french to english might sound like "rope or cord or piece of string. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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