Ice tool mods?

[Dane]

We are currently climbing on the best ice and mixed tools ever made. But the future still holds even better things to come.

 

I really like both the BD and the Petzl ice tools. I think the BD tools (Cobra and Viper) are better set up for alpine climbing than some of the other tools available. They are obviously some of the very best water ice and mixed tools as well. I'm just not a big fan of the BD picks in design, materials and manufacturing process.

 

When you look at the Petzel gear, picks aren't an issue.

 

But the Quark is out dated having been on the market now since the winter of 2000/2001. The Nomic on the other hand has some limitations that are hard to over come in the alpine. But the Nomic tool is so reliable and climbs everything so well that people are taking it to the mountains anyway. But both Petzl tools are lacking certain things we now take for granted with BD.

 

Trigger/second grip placement and umbilical attachments come to mind off hand.

 

The Nomic has shown just how light a tool can go and still climb exceptionally well.

 

But to date neither BD or Petzel has put all the current technology together in one tool.

 

Over the past two winters I keep seeing Quarks on some pretty hard routes with the adze and hammers missing like the Quark being used on the Droites pictured below. But I have seen Nomics being used on the Droites as well. The stock BD tools have been used to solo Droites as have the Petzel gear. Guys have added hammers to the Nomic and Quark heads to the Nomic shaft. That has to tell you something. Tells me no one has it at 100% yet.

 

 

Caroline George photo

 

How about a tool that does it all and never misses a stick?

Here is my "mission statement" for a better design and the current leader in design imo.

 

lightest possible weight and excellence balance (Nomic)

reliable picks (Petzel/Grivel, hot forged)

easy umbilical attachment (Black Diamond)

spike and top grip specifically for plunging (1/2 to BD)

big clearence on the shaft (everyone)

second hold mid shaft for matching (1/2 BD Cobra)

range of 3 distinct picks for mixed, alpine, water ice (no one)

removeable micro and macro adze and hammer (BD)

shaft cover, is slick, insulates & sticky top to bottom (no one)

Tool head, shaft, picks and grip that are all ergonomic (no one)

 

Here is what a few minutes effort from my shop produced today.

 

 

Obviously I started with a Quark. Weight now is comparable to a Nomic. Added a Grivel slider bolted on and contoured into a over size trigger and second grip. It is higher on the shaft so no matter the glove thickness you use it will fit nicely. Also makes matching more efficent with a bit more ground gained. Micro hammer shown was easy to mill but a standard adze and regular hammer will still bolt right on if required. Plumbers tape on the upper half of shaft. Alpine pick installed. No teeth close to the shaft so you can plunge the thing with some comfort and security. Mixed and Cascade picks are already available. Any of the picks are easy to modify to take the Nomic head weights if required.

 

Funky umbilical attachment...which could easily be done better if the grip rest was molded in originally. Still needs a place to clip off on a biner for carry. But I suspect you get the idea and just how far this could go.

 

Think how easy and quick it would be for Petzel or BD to incorporate all this into a production piece? Where is the creativity and ability to innovate now, that Chouinard and crew showed over and over again at GPIW?

 

Come on Bill, get them to step up to the plate and put it ALL together

[montypiton]

for years I modified ice tools to "juice" their feel and performance -- I wanted a pinky support and an index-finger-trigger, with a sticky grip, but less concerned with the full-length sticky-grip shaft, a meaningful spike and acceptably comfortable head for plunging in alpine conditions. When I demo'd the DMM rebel, I felt I'd found a tool that required no modification. It has the only factory-grip I've seen that has the pinky support, an adjustable index-finger-trigger, and a third trigger/support for matching. Three seasons and three sets of pick later, I still feel the same. I only wish the picks were easier to obtain. For ice-bums on a budget, the Trango Scorpion comes pretty close, as well.

 

this is not so much to disagree with Dane (he makes a pretty compelling case) as to suggest viable options for those who might not have the financial ability and shop-resources to buy the most expensive tool out there and then modify it...

[genepires]

I like the idea of getting rid of the teeth near the head of the tool.

 

I can't imagine cutting out and moditfying my axes to the extent that Dane is doing. Not that it isn't a good idea, just hurts to think that I would probably f^*ck up a $300 tool.

 

 

[rocky_joe]

how much if any benefit could I see by modifying my aztarex to take the head weights designed for the nomics. One climb and a few hundred feet on snice in I love the tool, but I imagine on some harder ice I'll want some additional head weight...any thoughts?

[Dane]

just hurts to think that I would probably f^*ck up a $300 tool.

 

Thought I might get that response Might well have given it myself. Here is the caveat/disclaimer if you want to modify your own tools. I have a fully stocked machine/metal shop and work in that medium on a daily basis. I would never cut up a tool I paid retail for...never, ever. I paid less than a $70 for this Quark in a well used but fully functioning condition.

 

I did this one as a "one off project" for myself to get me thinking about optimum tool design to match my own requirements. Any of the stock BD or Petzl tools will serve you well 99.9% of the time if you match the tool to the climb. I can't think of any of the out of the box production tools that my chopped up Quark would out perform pat that .1%.

 

I need to take the mill and a grinder to a Cobra, it might up the % a point of two!

 

Isn't good design just removing everything that isn't required?

 

 

[Farrgo]

I think it would be a shame to modify a tool specifically designed to be a lightweight alpine tool to make it heavier for ice climbing. If your heading down that road, why not just buy an ice tool?

[Dane]

I think it would be a shame to modify a tool specifically designed to be a lightweight alpine tool to make it heavier for ice climbing. If your heading down that road, why not just buy an ice tool?

 

RE: Aztarex? I agree.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Couple of random thoughts on the Quark. Even after cutting down the Quark head to Nomic size...it looks to have as much or may be a bit more aluminum supporting the pick. Nomic has 19mm x 21mm of aluminum head plus some heavy contouring and the biner hole to support the pick. The cut down lwt Quark has a full 22mm x 21mm of aluminum and no biner hole to support the pick. Neither tool supports the bottom of the pick on the shaft. Nomic picks (with or with out the bolt on pick weight)work in a standard Quark and have all the support of a normal Nomic. So the Nomic picks (and Quark picks) work in the chopped Quark as well.

 

Mini hammers seem to work (sorta) for the BD tools. Certainly changes the swing weight of the chopped Quark (or Nomic) but an option over using pick weights if you nee a hammer or want a little more weight for the sinker, one swing stick.

 

Either way the chopped Quark gives you the majority of advantages of the Quark for alpine and some of the advantages...but not all...of the Nomic.

 

Still working on cutting down an adze.

 

But a couple of options are easy enough to do.

 

 

 

[WageSlave]

Dane, it looks a lot like the Grivel matrix tech. How's the swing from a straighter shaft?

[Dane]

I agree. Much like the Grivel matrix tools. It may be close but looks to me like the Quark actually has more clearence over all (more curve spike to head) than the Matrix shaft. Could be wrong though. Matrix is one of the few tools I don't own so can't make a realistic comparison. Wasn't thrilled when Grivel changed to head replacement instead of the pick replacement. Nice tools none the less.

 

How does it swing? It is still a Quark....so just like one, except a good bit lighter in the hand and I suspect lighter than the Matrix. Lighter head and swing weight is an acquired taste and may not work well for everyone or to your tastes in every ice condition. For various reasons, better tools and less physical strength, I've found my technique has changed. I generally hook eveything now instead of swing with much force.

 

 

 

[TrogdortheBurninator]

Supposedly, petzl claims that trigrests can be used on Quarks. Went to check em out myself today. They will fit on the shaft just above the grip, but the design does not seem comfortable to hang off of. Finger support/ergonomics are great, but the material extending backwards digs in to the palm(unlike hose clamp of Grivel slider). Wish petzl would have just released a usable option alla the Slider or Strike.

 

[davidk]

The petzl rep I talked to in Bozeman said that fitting the trigrest on a Quark is not easily done (probably due to the change in tube profile where the shaft meets the grip). He did say the Quark will be a little different next year, and will likely include a second grip option similar to the trigrest concept.

 

Something I've considered doing on my Quarks is drilling the grey hard plastic part at the top of the grip to attach a BD strike. The BD Viper has a similar dual density grip, but they have thread inserts for the two strike positions. It would probably require a larger hole with a plastic insert of some kind (like a concrete screw anchor, only much slimmer) to take the screw. Anyone want to try and let me know how it goes?

[Dane]

Grivel slider is a no brainer on the Quark. Easy to fit.

 

[Julian]

Dane, any experience with modding the Aztars for leashless by attaching various components to them? I'm going to be in Vancouver in a few weeks and want to pop by MEC since (at least according to their site) they have all the Grivel mods in stock there (horn, slider, trigger).

[Dane]

Funny you should ask. Worked on these today for a local hardman. Hardest part was bolting the dang sliders on for matching, as usual. Couple bucks in water proof plumbers tape, a few minutes drilling a 1/2" hole in the end of the shaft for a sling or mini biner umbilical attachment point was all it took. Maybe not the best technical tools for water ice but a great lwt alpine mixed rig if where they have been used to date is any indication. Aztar should be even easier with less work. Use a Grivel Slider on the upper and a Quark grip rest bolted on the bottom. Tape as you deem required.

 

[fultonville]

Well somebodies been busy...

[RokIzGud]

Hmmm... Im now wondering how hard it would be to make a desing in a CAD program for picks and pop a few out on a CNC machine. Probably not very hard.

Edited December 16, 2009 by RokIzGud

[rhyang]

I own a pair of aztars and used to own quarks w/grip rests. Bolting a quark grip rest onto an aztar looked a bit unlikely - maybe it requires mods to the aztar grip or new holes drilled ?

 

The grivel sliders bolt right on though -

 

 

 

I haven't actually tried climbing on this rig though -- just did it to see if it would work

[Dane]

A Quark and the Aztar both require material be cut from the bottom rubber section of the grip to install the factory Quark hand support. Supports come with those directions for the Quark. Obvious as to what is required on the Aztar after reading the directions. Problem is you can't replace the material once removed and you loose the full size biner hole to clip an umbilical too.

 

Cord works fine though by adding a small loop to the hole that is available.

[cbcbd]

Bolting a quark grip rest onto an aztar looked a bit unlikely - maybe it requires mods to the aztar grip or new holes drilled ?

Met a guy who had done just that. Since the hole in the Aztar's spike is large, the Quark griprest would flop around when bolted through it. He cut some aluminum to fill the empty space in the spike and drilled a hole for the quark grip rest bolt.

[jordansahls]

Do any of you modify your picks? Is the stock pick design of say the Pezle blue ice pick (or cascade or whatever) still the best design for water ice?

[Dane]

While I have not personally attached the factory Quark grip ledge to a Axtar I "think" the spike/ends are very similar on both tools.

 

Might help to see this again.

 

This is a Quark with the small bit of silicone rubber handle material cut away on the left side that is required to add the Quark hand grip.

 

 

This is the Quark with the grip added. It is held in place by the bolt and an internal plastic cut out in the hand grip that "clicks" into the original large spike hole and is half of what keeps the grip from rotating. The bolt being the other 1/2. The hole left for umbilical attachment is about the same size as the obvious hex bolt in the grip.

 

 

Hope that helps.

 

Jordan...by most accounts it seems currently that the Petzl Cascade picks are still state of the art (in factory form thankfully) for pure ice.

[Julian]

Thanks for the advice and the pics guys! Those pics of the Aztar with the Grivel Slider in the hand rest position is probably the sort of thing I'm aiming for right now. Later I may look at doing some heavier mods to attach the Quark griprest and move the slider up to the matching position.

[rhyang]

Ah, I see why the hole might need to be drilled now.

 

With the sliders bolted on your hand would end up about 0.75" above where it normally would if you were using leashes. That would certainly decrease the reach of the tools, probably have some effect on swing too.

 

[robpatterson5]

Anyone fit sliders onto the BD Venoms? Were you still able to use them as sliders or did you have to crank them tight?

[montypiton]

Sliders are nice. I would use 2 per shaft - one "high" as a matching support, the other fitted to my trigger finger. I've cobbled the equivalent on several sets of tools by chopping wire-rope thimbles to a J, and attaching with hose-clamps. On old straight shaft tools without a bottom handrest, it takes three per shaft to get my rig. I used to insulate the metal thimbles with bicycle handlebar tape.

 

I do modify picks, but not much. Most recently I noticed that the picks supplied with the latest version Cobras I got for my son had no bottom bevel on the first tooth at the tip of the pick. Sure enough, the picks were sticky. The release improved immensely when I extended the bottom bevel all the way to the tip of the pick. This is really more "tuning" than modification, although I have to get more aggressive by the time I've worn through two or three teeth (more than an inch, for most tools). I work my picks mostly because I'm too cheap to replace them until they get REALLY SHORT. And I'm far too lazy to go to the lengths that Dane does.