Zero Bolt Climbing Crag

[kevbone]

 

Besides, he's gonna be drinking a bunch of free beer at my wedding soon anyway so I can make it up to him then...

 

Congrats...

[Checat]

Its kinda funny, between posts I'm printing invitations right now. Like climbing and bolts should be the most pressing thing on my mind, right...I haven't even written my vows, yet I'm willing to waste a bunch off time standing on top of a soapbox...

Edited April 9, 2009 by Checat

[pinner]

This is so compelling!!! There are about a dozen posts since page 3 I would like to quote and reply to, but alas, once the quote button is pressed, the jump to the reply screen occurs, and I have too little time left in my shift this afternoon...

 

As such, I will insert a few ramblings in regards to which posts still occupy my tiny mind at this point.

 

First, to Billcoe; PBR has its place, my friend. One can compare the differences of PBR and a true, good beer, to the differences between modern sport cragging and alpine explorations - sometimes you only have an hour after work before sundown, and sometimes you have 3 days, just as sometimes I only have $8 (Canadian - damn extortive liquor taxes) or just need some bonfire-shotgunning material, while at others I have padded pockets and a thick rib eye to accompany.

 

This leads me to one of Checat's replies in which he says something to the effect that in his mind even sport clipping should have some inherent risk to it; please explain the rationale for this. Sport clipping can be a wonderful way to spend a day with friends, an athletic endeavour that need not impose undue risk on the leader. My girlfriend is now an able and competent leader on moderate gear routes, and frequently braves the long, dicey slab sport runouts of the Chief (over 30 feet frequently), but the first time I took her climbing she was hysterical when being lowered on toprope. Without safe, closely bolted, easy sport climbs, she would never have made her first lead, and thus never progressed to this stage.

[Checat]

The problem with even trying to address your question is that "inherent risk" is so subjective that to try determine what is simply an easygoing athletic affair and what is taking ones life into ones own hands is nearly impossible.

 

There are so many things that an go wrong leading to climbing accidents or death Top-roping!

 

What is proper bolt length distance? Relative to height, relative to the angle of the rock, relative to what a potentially falling climber would be falling into (a ledge, an arete, free space...).

 

That's why its ironic that climbers in Oregon (myself included) identify some areas as "adventure" because of long run-outs, and other areas as "cake-walks" because you can't go a meter without tripping on two bolts.

 

I've mocked and ridiculed Flagstone because of the bolting thats gone on there, but because of the bolt spacing there, the leader has an extremely high probability of Z-clipping.

 

As I said before: all levels of inherent risk in "sport-climbing" is subjective. Bolt-less climbing=zero subjectivity. Every part of the protection system is up to the leader; therefore development within these terms remains completely objective.

 

In terms of where aspiring leaders should go to "progress" to the state of taking on new challenges; take it indoors. I am much more in favor of utilizing artificial climbing surfaces to prepare people for their endeavors than I am turning our outdoor challenges into what breaks down to artificial climbing terrain.

[pinner]

food for thought...

 

not only will the routes that I have developed out there remain bolt free, but all at this area will remain bolt free.

 

Who cares, its not my place to dictate where bolts go (for now but when I'm Climbing Czar that will all change, {insert evil mad scientist laugh}).

 

another note...

 

As far as no-bolt being sustainable, in respect to your big anchor trees...

eventually, those trees will die, rot, and fall. True, it will be long a time from now, and there may well be new ones to supplant them. But what if there aren't?

Sling damage will eventually occur on even the largest trees if they get enough use, though it sounds like this area won't see that.

 

Then again, trees are amazingly resilient...

 

I was climbing at the Niagara Escarpment in southern Onterrible once many years ago, and was a relatively inexperienced climber who (unknowingly) had only climbed at areas with ridiculously easy access, and was just getting into trad and recently had my first shock of arriving at the top of a route and finding neither tree nor bolts. Rattlesnake Point, the area on the escarpment, sports trees well back from the edge for anchors, and being sensitive and in a prak, require padding before slinging. As naive as I was, I was extremely lucky to have with me that day 3m of 5 mil cordelette, but still was able to run an anchor to the edge only by lassooing the tree with a single (obviously unpadded) strand of 5 mil, and linking several quickdraws end-to-end to reach the lip. Scary! (I learned about the possibilities of creating anchors with the rope only much later)

 

While this is surely off-topic and rambly, its just to show that the more people are able to find out an area exists, the more likely they are to show up unprepared for it...

 

Currently Rattlesnake Point is having (or has had) bolt anchors installed at the top of its trad routes to eliminate impacts on trees and erosion of the cliff tops. Very interesting stuff...

 

Ontario Access Coalition

 

again, this is a high-traffic area, so does not quite apply to the Lack...

Edited April 9, 2009 by pinner

[pinner]

In terms of where aspiring leaders should go to "progress" to the state of taking on new challenges; take it indoors. I am much more in favor of utilizing artificial climbing surfaces to prepare people for their endeavors than I am turning our outdoor challenges into what breaks down to artificial climbing terrain.

 

excellent! :tup:

 

This is a great point

[Checat]

My first quote was in reference to the Lack, and it won't remain bolt free because I said so, but because of the consensus of all that currently go there.

 

Second quote had to do with an area that already has bolts and has been bolted for years...

 

That should be clarified

Edited April 9, 2009 by Checat

[luvshaker]

Checat- I'm seeing two issues develop in this forum that it seems your after getting feedback on and I'm wondering if you are hoping for a cresendo toward the second.

 

-A bolt free crag in Oregon, with the possibility of others in the future.....if the topograpghy deems appropriate.

 

-You publishing a guide for this area.

 

You know I respect what you are doing in the first, and the internet may be a good place for that??????

 

But for the latter, I'm not sure this is your best venue for your cause. Props for the documentation and communication with climbers to get "the history" captured of this place. You know I dug looking through it. But if you are looking for feedback on a guide, you might want to start with the people who climb there regularly. Be patient, keep being the "go to guy" with new stuff, keep on chimneys (all yours), the time will come when everyone is ready. Personally, I don't think the time is now for many reasons, the biggest is that you don't need a guide to climb there, and it fits the no bolts ethic real well. You know already how others feel that don't post here, and I just don't think you build much of a case if "13 people from CC.com agree with me". You got to remember, a bolt free place to climb was someone's pipe dream long before it was yours. Just keep buying them beer, and being the cool dude that you are. It will happen. Gotta respect those who came first.

 

ALmost 4-Going climbing now....

Lee

[Checat]

You know what? Your right!

 

I need to do a better job of contributing to that someone elses pipedream and quit making it my own.

 

I guess I am a little frustrated that I am no longer their go to communique....and I don't think it has only to do with being geographically located an hour too far north...

 

Edited April 10, 2009 by Checat

[Checat]

I am a little confused on what you mean by "keep on chimneys", are you talking about chimney climbs out there.

 

Plummer's crack is all mike...

[markd]

paul,

i agree completely with you that this crag should remain boltless as that's how the original developers believed it should be developed along with the fact that no guidebook gets written and people find out via word-of-mouth.

 

that being said, i find it laughable that you choose to only follow one of those provisions and kind of evolve the other as you choose, all the while you staunchly are opposed to anyone considering placing bolts because you say so. meanwhile you're also talking about it on the web and basically giving away it's location. if you're going to set a precedent and have a boltless crag based off history and tradition then you yourself should try and follow strictly the rules that were told to you when you were first brought there.

 

 

[powderhound]

paul,

meanwhile you're also talking about it on the web and basically giving away it's location.

 

FALSE

 

the only mention of any relative area is out by OakRidge....I would laugh my ass off if someone went out to oakridge thinking they were going to find this place. I have trouble remebering which roads to take and I have been there several times, you are not going to find this area without a bit more help than "in the area of oakridge"

 

 

[Checat]

I was never "brought" there. I had to find the place for myself based on contextual clues. My relationship with the area developed without any knowledge or acceptance by the initial developers. i started communicating with them 3-6 months after I was already regularly frequenting the crag.

 

 

[powderhound]

you still have that "riddle" that if solved tell you how to get to the lack?

[Checat]

I do, where all the numbers are coded, and you have eat three boxes of cracker-jacks and send it in for the decoder ring (or look at a map of the area and start trying different combinations) you can solve the puzzle. Its kinda funny because its a whole lot easier to look at a map and make some inferences...but its much funner to pretend to be some kind of secret agent thats been given a coded message...

[el jefe]

paul,

i agree completely with you that this crag should remain boltless as that's how the original developers believed it should be developed along with the fact that no guidebook gets written and people find out via word-of-mouth.

 

that being said, i find it laughable that you choose to only follow one of those provisions and kind of evolve the other as you choose, all the while you staunchly are opposed to anyone considering placing bolts because you say so. meanwhile you're also talking about it on the web and basically giving away it's location. if you're going to set a precedent and have a boltless crag based off history and tradition then you yourself should try and follow strictly the rules that were told to you when you were first brought there.

 

 

good point, markd. my guess is that the whole reason for this thread in the first place was that checat wants to hype his guidebook -- you know, get people talking about the place so that sales are better. a guide to a place no one has ever heard of is unlikely to return much money to the author.

 

 

 

[billcoe]

good point, markd. my guess is that the whole reason for this thread in the first place was that checat wants to hype his guidebook -- you know, get people talking about the place so that sales are better. a guide to a place no one has ever heard of is unlikely to return much money to the author.

 

The world which you live in must be dark indeed.

[el jefe]

my world is dark? i'm not the guy with the cache of firearms to protect me from the government and/or my fellow citizens suddenly turning on me and stealing my rights, you are. talk about living in a dark world.

 

checat started this thread about the bolt-free nirvana called "the lack" and, as markd pointed out, he seems to think he is entitled to pick and choose which of the local ethics he wants to adhere to (e.g., no bolts) and the ones he doesn't want to adhere to (e.g., no guidebook). i'm wondering about the motivation of a guy who is willing to publish a guidebook to an area where the community of climbers has long been opposed to having one: clearly he isn't speaking for the community consensus, so he is either out to make a buck or magnanimously spreading the gospel of bolt-free to the ignorant savages who are still out clipping bolts. perhaps checat is this kind, noble, magnanimous soul dedicated to raising the consciousness of benighted boltclippers throughout the great state of oregon and is planning to donate all the proceeds from his guidebook for bolt replacement -- no, i mean, tree replacement or?

[Checat]

I guess I'll have to do this point by point:

 

*Climbing guidebooks are rarely a money making endeavor and as far as my project goes any revenue made: ever, would never match up to residual costs that I've incurred over the years in putting it together. My aim in developing it and presenting it to the public has more to do with my desire to share it and the ethics/styles/practices that it embodies because I don't believe it should be so one of a kind.

"A strong and benevolent impulse to share motivates many clubs and individuals - including guidebook writers- to advertise access to the hidden places of the backcountry. Sharing is a generous quality. We love to share the wilderness world. What is difficult, but maybe not impossible, is both to share and to preserve." Wilderness Ethics, Laura and Guy Waterman

 

* It is not the CONSENSUS of those that climb there that a guidebook not exist. It is merely the two most important members of that cohort that believe a guidebook shouldn't exist at this time. There are those that agree with me in that the place has a better likelihood of remaining boltless with a guidebook in place, and there are those that simply want a record of their accomplishments (because sans bolts, no evidence remains).

 

*If you hadn't noticed, I started another thread about areas that have "good" bolts. The point I've tried to make from the beginning is that NOT ALL CRAGS SHOULD HAVE bolts... But if future developers don't have a model to work off of, it is unlikely that this ethic will occur to them out of a vacuum...

 

[el jefe]

good luck with your guidebook, i hope you are able to recover your residual costs.

 

i had noticed the other thread re: good bolts but don't care anymore. the point i've been trying to make is that i'm tired of people such as you who think it is your job to tell the rest of us what our relationship to climbing should be. i think people approach the sport for different reasons and to get different things from it, and that it isn't up to me or you to decide for them what that should be. some people prefer flagstone to the lack, others prefer the lack to flagstone. that's fine by me, each to his own. i like a diverse diet so the fact that there are different areas where different styles of climbing are practiced ensures that i will get what i want.

 

i hope you have a happy time passing judgment on all the different climbing areas you encounter, putting them into your little categories of good bolts and badly bolted and overbolted and whatever. as i said, each to his own.

 

 

[Checat]

i like a diverse diet so the fact that there are different areas where different styles of climbing are practiced ensures that i will get what i want.

 

Then you should appreciate people like me actually presenting a counterpoint to bolted crags. Now your the one not making sense. You want diversity in areas but you don't want someone like me taking a strong stance and presenting an alternative ethic...

Edited April 12, 2009 by Checat

[lancegranite]

You should charge by the word.

 

 

[Off_White]

Interesting thread, pretty good for a bolt debate.

 

Bill, I don't quite see your point in that link to the personal squabble between Kevin Worral & Chris Hubbard down in San Diego, and if you're talking about El Cajon Mountain in general and the psychotic Art Messier business, that crag is in plain view from Interstate 8, no more hidden away than Beacon Rock is from I-84. That chopping war has nothing to do with whether the information about it should, or even could, have been kept secret.

 

The difference between Checat and Raindawg is that the Dawg argues against all bolts, while Checat is proposing bolt free areas. I've got no problems with areas with few or no bolts, the Gunks are one of the finest examples of that sort of thing. It would be unfortunate if all areas were treated the same, homogenized, in the same way that the modern strip mall & big box zones in Portland are indistinguishable from Phoenix or Bloomington Indiana. I do think a guidebook is one way to reinforce a local ethic, and generally speaking I approve of the dissemination of information.

 

In terms of human impact though, bolts are really only issues in the games climbers play. Non climbers are as likely to be upset by trails and scrubbing and slings around trees as expansion bolts. You can't see a single bolt on the Apron at Squamish from the road, but you can sure see the cleaned slug trails up that steepish slab. There are portions of walls at Castle Rock State Park in Idaho (next door to City of Rocks) that are closed to climbing to protect the moss on the rock. It was the trail and the method of bolt installation that upset non climbers about Infinite Bliss, not the bolts themselves. That's our little obsession, like Nascar drivers arguing about tread patterns.

 

It's not to say the tension and argument aren't worthwhile, I just don't see that there is one answer for everyone, and it seems like Checat sees that also.

 

Bill's point about not making hints is valid though, a few minutes with Google Earth gave me a pretty good idea of where to look and how to get there. I'm unlikely to drive 6 hours to do that though, and knowing the local ethic, there's no way I'd place any bolts if I did go find the crag.

[powderhound]

a few minutes with Google Earth gave me a pretty good idea of where to look and how to get there

 

whats google?

[billcoe]

The more people randomly invited in without passing the attitude test = the increased likelyhood of various crazy assed viewpoints and personalities popping in is what I was reflecting on Doug. I totally agree that it's nice to have discussions like this online, in an appropriate forum: which was something Raindawg really had trouble with.

 

I wish this crew well, sounds like they are on a good path, and sure, it would not be for everyplace, but it is for this location.

 

Regards to all