Checat Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 For how many people out there is this a reality? And obviously I mean a roped crag (not bouldering, not alpine) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 For how many people out there is this a reality? And obviously I mean a roped crag (not bouldering, not alpine) What's the question again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 Does that include anchors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markd Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 i hope you're not asking this in preface to outing the crag you're referring to! to answer your question, yes the reality of a crag without bolts is attainable though not sustainable at all crags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checat Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 Nope, not even for anchors... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 Nope, not even for anchors... then no it is not a reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checat Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 If you know much about the area that I am running the risk of "outing" you know that it won't make a bit of difference for me to promote it or not...it probably won't change the number of people who frequent it. I guess I am posting this thread to prove to myself (and maybe the few of you out there that know what the hell I'm talking about) that it is truly one of a kind, AND THAT IS A PROBLEM. Wouldn't you say its a downright shame that more places like it don't exist? How can we expect anything different if we continue to cloak it in secrecy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checat Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 Its a reality for me. Hell I've even written a guidebook to Shangri La, but I won't be content until people start thinking that it can be a reality for others... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 Sure you could. What would you hope to achieve with no bolts? Learning to to do gear anchors and leads as a learning experience for gym climbers? Not condemning, just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 Do you own the property it sits on? If not then its only a matter of time before some asshole with a drill shows up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checat Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 I would say that presenting an actual "leave no trace" mentality within the sport of climbing is much more relevant than giving people a place to practice techniques is much more my aim. Has anyone actually stopped to think that while we accept bolts as a part of climbing, its not something mother nature is really down with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checat Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 No I don't own the property it sits on. And you are proving the point I've tried to make for the last five years in trying to convince my higher authorities (in regard to the crag) of the necessity of a guidebook to inform and instill good ethics among all that visit the area. But recently I've gone off the climbing deep end and understand that the relevancy of this place is not a means to its own ends...This area, and the values of the practices there needs to have relevancy to more Oregon climbers, more U.S. climbers, more climbers globally... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemp22 Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 while a bolt-free crag may not be common in OR, they exist lots of other places, and are successful & popular. If the topography is favorable for having top-access to the cliff for walking off, and the cliff is shorter than a rope length, then it's certainly sustainable. Even Horsethief Butte is essentially a bolt-free crag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 Has anyone actually stopped to think that while we accept bolts as a part of climbing, its not something mother nature is really down with? Things Mother Nature is most likely not down with: Cleaning out cracks/ killing echo systems Cutting forests down/ pouring concrete down and calling is a road Chopping trails to get to the crag. Cities/ dumps/ sewage/ buildings. Chalk on the wall. Erosion of hillsides. Just to name a few…… Bolts got nothing compared to some of the things listed above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checat Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 (edited) "they exist lots of other places, and are successful and popular". OK, where and what crags? And as far as HTButte goes, I said ZERO-BOLTS, not essentially ZERO Edited April 7, 2009 by Checat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checat Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 I feel you on these points. More climbers need to read the works of Laura and Guy Waterman. But in the whole grand scheme of necessary evils for the sake of recreational activities: where do places like Flagstone fit in(areas where you can clip 2 bolts from a single stance)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 nature is not a person - it doesn't exist, it has no feelings, no preferences, so it doesn't give a shit what we do to it - if nature did have a brain i doubt it would worry - its 5 billion years old and would know full well in a short time all the alterations of man will all be gone anyway that said, you could have a zero bolt crag, you'd just have to work to keep it that way and be prepared for things to get nasty - duh. the folks out at rocky butt are plenty succesful in chopping new bolts as they appear. of course they are broadly considered fools. if your no-bolt crew doesn't maintain a presence though, the bolts will appear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldiente Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 Most of the State Parks in Minnesota are bolt free and it is no good. A standard kit for many of the routes includes 200' feet of static line to tie off trees and boulders that are a long way back from the edge. On a busy weekend there will be dozens of these ropes tied off to trees, bushes, and boulders creating a hell of an eye sore for the non-climbers hiking along the top of the cliff. Really dumb, a few bolts would clean up this mess. So long story short, if you want a bolt free crag, head on up to Minnesota, beautiful weather up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 I have climbed at Paradise Forks 3 or 4 times and don’t remember seeing any bolts at all. Same scenario…..one static line tied to a tree 30 feet back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 I would say that presenting an actual "leave no trace" mentality within the sport of climbing is much more relevant than giving people a place to practice techniques is much more my aim. Has anyone actually stopped to think that while we accept bolts as a part of climbing, its not something mother nature is really down with? Sure, many have considered this idea. I think it's an admirable and interesting idea Checat. Certainly if you want this to be the "law of the land" at your new place, you have to work hard and get folks on board. Start with your friends and let the circle work outwards. Then you will eventually need to write it down as the circle gets further out. Maybe a name like "natural cliff" or "No-Bolts Cliff" will help you along as well. This is the preface to a route list I was asked to write. It was done more to avoid having people leave the gym a few years from now for their first or second outdoor experience and see a blank face and think "all it needs is some bolts". This area has some bolts, but they are not plentiful, and they are generally put in where it makes sense to put them. There is protection bolts here and there and there are some bolted rap anchors where trees are not accessible. It is hoped that when the next generation takes over that they respect the place and leave it as it is. The pitch on the route list is designed to get them thinking of this issue in advance. Says: "There are multiple top ropes throughout the area, some of which are described and some of which are not. Although this area should not have any “Do Nots”, please DO NOT think that just because there are no bolts stuck in a face, that by putting in bolts you are doing a first ascent and a new route. You are probably not. What you are most likely doing is sticking bolts into an area that intentionally did not have bolts slammed in it by earlier climbers. This may have been done on purpose, that is, intentionally left that way for a specific reason by those many climbers who were here first, often after extensive discussion amongst themselves about it. It may have intentionally been left as a toprope climb, on purpose. So the moral may be that if you plan on putting in bolts in opposition and disagreement to what all the previous climbers who have and continue to climb here, despite what they all thought and/or think, then plan on having your “new” bolts quickly removed and your alleged route erased. So if you think you see a new line or have a great idea for a route: check in with others who are invested in the area and then act. This is a different thing than acting first and then being upset later. when folks discover your perfidy. This might be a nice guideline to keep in mind anywhere you are climbing." I saw the Ozone fellas get their panties in a bunch when someone bolted a line close to an existing route, the recent bolt ladder that crossed Waynes route at Broughtons is another example: hopefully that kind of indignation and anger can be avoided here and at your place as well. Here's a couple of areas now that are diametrically opposed on the bolt issues. One has no bolts (yet), one is ONLY bolts (so far). On the left pic, thats a ground up FA, check out the ice axe! On the right hand pic, eventually someone will trip over a crack there I suppose. I say let the route, history and the rock dictate these things. Good luck with your dream and your vision! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_forester Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 Most of the State Parks in Minnesota are bolt free and it is no good. A standard kit for many of the routes includes 200' feet of static line to tie off trees and boulders that are a long way back from the edge. On a busy weekend there will be dozens of these ropes tied off to trees, bushes, and boulders creating a hell of an eye sore for the non-climbers hiking along the top of the cliff. Really dumb, a few bolts would clean up this mess. So long story short, if you want a bolt free crag, head on up to Minnesota, beautiful weather up there. I've seen this at Shovel Point - ropes running across the trail, or is my memory bad here? No bolts at Taylor's Falls either? Sorry for the drift, the policies at crowded Minnesota state parks probably aren't relevant to whatever crag the OP is talking about, which I imagine is semi-remote? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimper Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 if a crag is generally a single pitch cliff that is close enough to where people live that they can go there after work or for only a half-day, then: unless the majority of routes are top-outs, with trees for anchors to belay up the second, and an easy walk back down to the base (or burly trees with permanent webbing for the thousands of craggers who will require safe rappels after each pitch) - then a bolt-free crag is not likely to last because when climbers go to CRAG (see above definition) they don't want to even go through the above procedures between routes, let alone deal with an involved walk-off, sketchy rappel, or having to leave their own gear. in other words, cragging is inseparable from convenience, and routes at crags pretty much have to have fixed anchors enabling you to move on to the next pitch. if they don't yet, they will soon, once a cragger with a drill "fixes" things. if there weren't convenient fixed anchors, it wouldn't be cragging, and you'd be doing a multi or alpine climbing. and as ivan and kevbone have said, unless you become the rock police and thus invite conflict, bolts will appear because craggers will see the crag as a crag -and not the romantic and aesthetic ideal you wish for. sorry to be a buzzkill, but i think a bolt-free crag won't last unless it's far enough backcountry to be alpine. in which case, it wouldn't be a crag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimper Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 PS - i didn't mean for my words to be discouraging (though i guess they were). i encourage you to stick to your vision and at least keep your own routes bolt free, but just don't be surprised or crushed if fixed anchor bolts appear. Also, consider the likelihood that the person who drilled them may have had the best intentions, thinking they were "helping out" someone who lacked a drill, or making the post-lead part of the climb safer or more convenient for not only themselves but others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderhound Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 (edited) I have climbed at Paradise Forks 3 or 4 times and don’t remember seeing any bolts at all. Same scenario…..one static line tied to a tree 30 feet back. he is right...there are not blots at Paradise..one of the most special areas I have climbed at. I also don't know if there are any bolts at Moojack another special area that should be protected. Hit me up if you need some help with your no bolt crag, I have a set of old pins and warthogs I need to use. Edited April 7, 2009 by powderhound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checat Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 Bryan - this thread is about the Lack... and yes we do need to get back out there together, are you back in the great state of Oregon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.