Debt Cut

[Dechristo]

...not tax cuts.

 

Forgive Student Loans: Stimulate the Middle and Lower Middle Class

 

Forgive Student Loans!

 

^

The American middle and lower classes are crippled under the weight of educational debt; in these unusual times, as we bail out lenders and executives, we encourage the Obama administration to forgive student loans, providing a bail-out to the people and simultaneously increasing their spending power.

^

In 2009, we enter a new age, where anything is possible. As our industries falter, we have no choice but to reconsider how we do just about everything, from governing to banking to educating our people.

 

^

In virtually every other advanced industrialized democracy, education, among other things, is right, rather than a privilege. Our system, like life itself, has never been fair; but in offering a level playing field for education, we create equal opportunities and increase our national intellectual capital.

 

^

While education cannot suddenly be offered for free, we must examine the cost of the system and the sometimes predatory lending practices that maintain it. The cost of education has outpaced earnings and potential employment. And, as we necessarily consider new possibilities and reconstruct our system, we ask that the new administration consider alleviating educational debts.

 

^

As our economy collapses and many find themselves suddenly unemployed, we must consider different ways to alleviate the economic pressure on the people. We are already bailing out the auto industry, the investment banks and countless executives, as well as the lenders to whom educational debts are owed.

 

^

The goal of forgiving student loans is to relieve pressure on the middle and lower classes and increase our spending power, to deepen our national commitment to an educated public, and to expand the equality of opportunity. In execution, this could take many forms, ranging from requiring bailed-out lenders to forgive some or all educational debt to suspending interest on educational debt to offering greater tax relief to educational debtors.

 

^

Recognizing or at least demanding of those elected or appointed for their expertise in this area, we ask that the Obama Administration to consider the idea of forgiving student loans.

 

 

^

For a more details, stories and data about student loans: please read: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-collegedebt27-2008dec27,1,5293672,full.column

- Sarah Szalavitz (Entrepreneur), Beverly HIlls, CA Nov 24 @ 10:05AM PST

 

Jubilee!

every fifty years.

[prole]

The home will always have a residual value determined by the rental income that it could generate. The degree, or the gazillion others like it, has no objective value whatsoever, and might even render the holder of the said degree less happy, less employable, full of baseless conceits about what he's owed by society, etc.

 

I should have gone into investment banking. Oh wait...fuck!

 

German billionaire kills himself

 

German billionaire Adolf Merckle has committed suicide after his business empire ran into trouble in the global economic slowdown.

 

In a statement his family said he had been "broken" by the financial crisis, and had taken his own life.

 

Mr Merckle ran up losses of about 400m euros (£363m;$535m) last year due to wrong-way bets on Volkswagen shares.

 

He was ranked as the world's 94th richest person in 2008, and his family controls a number of German companies.--from BBC 1/6/09

[tvashtarkatena]

This brings to mind an interesting question - who's the bigger retard: The guy or used a stated-income pay-option I/O loan to shoehorn himself into a home that he couldn't afford, or the guy who borrowed $80,000 to secure a degree in Post-Critical Studies? I vote for the latter.

 

The home will always have a residual value determined by the rental income that it could generate. The degree, or the gazillion others like it, has no objective value whatsoever, and might even render the holder of the said degree less happy, less employable, full of baseless conceits about what he's owed by society, etc.

 

Wastral:

 

I'd like to see the US adopt a system of credentialing examinations for specific professions. Employers would have something more concrete than "This guy attended X college so..." to base their decisions on when assessing which young person to hire, and the smart, driven guy who busted his ass at a no-name college/community-college and knows his stuff would have an objective assessment of his skills to bring to the table. Ditto for students who can't afford to, or don't want to take all of the courses necessary to complete a degree.

 

'Credentials'? For what disciplines, exactly?

 

And how would such 'credentials' be determined 'objectively'. By whom? 'Experts'? Essentially, you're advocating for a higher level of No Child Left Behind, a program which has really REVOLUTIONIZED our education system. It's an idea borne of someone who views human beings as standardized units of production, rather than unique individuals.

 

There was no correlation between the productivity and creativity of the many designers and technologists I've worked with and their 'credentials'. Zero. People are good at what they do because they love it, they work hard at it, and they start with a seed of innate talent for it, not because some national academic oversight committee determined how much they were worth.

 

THe most talented design engineer I ever knew got his electrical engineering degree from some podunk college in power (as in the grid) engineering (that was his 'credentials') He built an custom IC development department from scratch.

 

How would such a committee, far from the cutting edge of invention, develop and maintain 'standards' for such invention, particularly at today's pace? Yeah, you get the idea.

 

Credentials beyond standard college degrees (which are themselves dubious at times) are excellent gatekeepers for none-creative professions: doctors, pilots, and the like. These disciplines are already more than adequately saddled with credentials, of course.

 

Apprenticeships and a more robust system of credentials might benefit some non-academic vocations: machinists and the like.

 

For creative pursuits, such as the develepment of new technology, they are time, energy, and money wasters.

 

By way of example, and there are many, many more, Bill Gates never even finished college.

Edited January 8, 2009 by tvashtarkatena

[prole]

Wastral:

 

I'd like to see the US adopt a system of credentialing examinations for specific professions. Employers would have something more concrete than "This guy attended X college so..." to base their decisions on when assessing which young person to hire, and the smart, driven guy who busted his ass at a no-name college/community-college and knows his stuff would have an objective assessment of his skills to bring to the table. Ditto for students who can't afford to, or don't want to take all of the courses necessary to complete a degree.

 

Great idea Smithers. This would go a long way towards your goal of turning human beings into commodified, quantifiable units, justify defunding of education by the state, and deepen systemic inequalities while maintaining pure objectivity. Revolutionary (about 8 years ago).

[tvashtarkatena]

It should also be mentioned that the U.S. still has the best college and post graduate education in the world. That's why everyone else sends their best and brightest here. I'm sure that a layer of generic, standardized 'credentials' would make it even better, though.

 

I should also be mentioned that, apparently unbeknownced to certain posters, a myriad of established development disciplines already have their own credential programs that are kept up to date by practitioners.

Edited January 8, 2009 by tvashtarkatena

[rbw1966]

This brings to mind an interesting question - who's the bigger retard: The guy or used a stated-income pay-option I/O loan to shoehorn himself into a home that he couldn't afford, or the guy who borrowed $80,000 to secure a degree in Post-Critical Studies? I vote for the latter.

 

The home will always have a residual value determined by the rental income that it could generate. The degree, or the gazillion others like it, has no objective value whatsoever, and might even render the holder of the said degree less happy, less employable, full of baseless conceits about what he's owed by society, etc.

 

Hmmm. . I am the latter. I have a BS in Political Science. If you truly think it has "no objective value whatsoever" then we are in disagreement. The critical thinking, writing and research skills I developed in obtaining that degree have served me well in my career. On the other hand, I didn't take out an ARM to shoehorn myself into a home I couldn't afford. Perhaps that balances out my retarded-ness.

 

I agree with Prole with respect to education and a functioning democracy. I disagree with the position that he shouldn't have to re-pay his loans. When one signs their name on a contract they have a moral obligation to fulfill the terms (be they borrower or lender). Personal responsibility and social responsibility can co-exist.

 

There are fields in which one has to obtain "credentials"--e.g. doctor, lawyer, accountant, teacher. Are you arguing that you should be forced to be credentialed to flip burgers?

[prole]

"I'm a Beta. I like being a Beta. I'm glad I'm not an Alpha, they're sooo brainy. And Deltas work too hard, and they're dumb. I'm glad to be a Beta."

[KaskadskyjKozak]

"I'm a Beta. I like being a Beta. I'm glad I'm not an Alpha, they're sooo brainy. And Deltas work too hard, and they're dumb. I'm glad to be a Beta."

 

Yes, Prole, YOU are a beta.

 

[Hugh Conway]

There are fields in which one has to obtain "credentials"--e.g. doctor, lawyer, accountant, teacher. Are you arguing that you should be forced to be credentialed to flip burgers?

 

It's a quaintly European notion of a highly structured and inflexible workforce.

[rbw1966]

I think its more about protectionism (jobs, not consumers)

[prole]

Whatever its intention, the result is less class and cultural mobility and deeper inequalities. But boy, the theoretical efficiencies are endless!

 

 

[JayB]

This brings to mind an interesting question - who's the bigger retard: The guy or used a stated-income pay-option I/O loan to shoehorn himself into a home that he couldn't afford, or the guy who borrowed $80,000 to secure a degree in Post-Critical Studies? I vote for the latter.

 

The home will always have a residual value determined by the rental income that it could generate. The degree, or the gazillion others like it, has no objective value whatsoever, and might even render the holder of the said degree less happy, less employable, full of baseless conceits about what he's owed by society, etc.

 

Hmmm. . I am the latter. I have a BS in Political Science. If you truly think it has "no objective value whatsoever" then we are in disagreement. The critical thinking, writing and research skills I developed in obtaining that degree have served me well in my career. On the other hand, I didn't take out an ARM to shoehorn myself into a home I couldn't afford. Perhaps that balances out my retarded-ness.

 

I agree with Prole with respect to education and a functioning democracy. I disagree with the position that he shouldn't have to re-pay his loans. When one signs their name on a contract they have a moral obligation to fulfill the terms (be they borrower or lender). Personal responsibility and social responsibility can co-exist.

 

There are fields in which one has to obtain "credentials"--e.g. doctor, lawyer, accountant, teacher. Are you arguing that you should be forced to be credentialed to flip burgers?

 

No - I think it'd be useful for folks who have mastered a specific skillset or body of knowledge that's relevant to a particular line of work had an opportunity to get some kind of formal recognition for doing so, even if they never attended a college or university, or didn't complete their degree.

 

The CFA Charter is a good example of what I have in mind. They require a four-year degree, four years of relevant work experience, or a combination of both as part of the set of qualifications that they require before granting the charter, in addition to completing the exam. They recognize the value of a degree/taking college level courses, but also recognize the value of relevant work experience. I like the fact it provides smart, driven people who want to work in finance with the opportunity to secure a credential that will get their skills universally recognized even if they never went to college. It's also entirely voluntary, and so far as I know, not required to work in finance in any state. I do think the value of the CFA is recognized by employers in every state, though. There's clearly already quite a few other programs like this out there, but this is the first example that comes to mind.

 

I think that there are plenty of rational arguments that you can make for things like the CFA certification, but for me the main emotional driver for this is the number of dumbasses with degrees that I've come across in my day, who don't seemed to have learned much more than a false conceit about their place in and worth to society relative to, say, a farmer or a CNC machinist.

 

It's also worth noting that a credential is something different than a license. The use and misuse of state licensing is a separate discussion, but when the state requires a license to arrange flowers for a living (as is the case in Louisiana), then things have gone badly awry.

 

Per my comments about the worthlessness of a particular degree - I'm sorry if I offended you. I also have a BA, in the History of Science, but I never expected that the degree would, on it's own, lead to a secure and/or comfortable living, despite all of the fascinating things that I learned and skills that I honed in the process of getting it. I also think that the number of people who get themselves massively in debt in order to secure degrees that have a vanishingly low probability of generating anything like the economic return necessary to service the said debts without significant hardship is...very unfortunate. I wish that, alongside the uncritical praise of a university education that we heap on young people, we also tossed in a prudent warning or two (and maybe an amortization sheet) about the realities of debt and life beyond campus. If you're going to spend $120,000 on a degree in poetry - great - just do so with your eyes open, and don't cry about the cosmic injustice you're suffering when the monthly payments kick in.

[JayB]

Whatever its intention, the result is less class and cultural mobility and deeper inequalities. But boy, the theoretical efficiencies are endless!

 

 

A system that makes a four year degree the central requirement for getting ahead in life satisfies this description far more than a system that also grants equal recognition to vocational aptitude - however and wherever it was obtained.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rbw1966]

You can't offend me Jay--I respect your opinion even if we may differ. I was just offering a different data point in contradiction to your thesis.

 

Prior to going to college (and immediately after getting out of the Army) I worked side by side with a guy who had a degree in Finance. We did the same job (not even remotely related to finance) yet he felt he should get paid more, solely due to his degree. Fortunately our employer disagreed with him and compensation was based on performance.

[Wastral]

Can't agree with you more Tvash.

 

It comes down to personal irresponsibility for ones actions, for those who wish for others to pay for their lives.

 

I have some sympathy for those who are poor, but not much. They are poor for the most part, in this country anyways, because they are LAZY and LAZY parents who taught them to be LAZY. I have several cousins who fit this criteria to a T. Has nothing to do with how smart they are, they were plenty smart to get a good job. They were taught that being stupid, ignorant, and lazy was cool.

 

Brian

Its the guy who loves their job who is the best, has nothing to do with which classes one took.

[tvashtarkatena]

Can't agree with you more Tvash.

 

It comes down to personal irresponsibility for ones actions, for those who wish for others to pay for their lives.

 

I have some sympathy for those who are poor, but not much. They are poor for the most part, in this country anyways, because they are LAZY and LAZY parents who taught them to be LAZY. I have several cousins who fit this criteria to a T. Has nothing to do with how smart they are, they were plenty smart to get a good job. They were taught that being stupid, ignorant, and lazy was cool.

 

Brian

Its the guy who loves their job who is the best, has nothing to do with which classes one took.

 

Well, here's where you and I go our separate ways.

 

I grew up in a family of very modest means. My father was certainly anything but lazy; he was a career Navy man, and they just weren't paid much back then. He grew up very poor; not because his father was lazy, but because his father was killed in an industrial accident when he was a young boy. He worked his way out of poverty, much to the benefit of myself and my siblings, but was stricken with a chronic illness, which drained a good deal of his savings, despite his military benefits (which are not as comprehensive as many of us might think).

 

I think you should closely examine your remarks and the harsh sentiments behind them; I'm not sure the problem is with the poor. Frankly, the laziest group of people I've ever worked with were very well paid software engineers. Get to work at 11:00, leave by 5:00, surf the net while at your desk. Many of the poor work several jobs and lead brutally hard lives in comparison.

 

And get out a bit more. You might find that your assumptions may well be nothing more than someone else's propoganda.

Edited January 8, 2009 by tvashtarkatena

[Dechristo]

If you're going to spend $120,000 on a degree in poetry - great - just do so with your eyes open, and don't cry about the cosmic injustice you're suffering when the monthly payments kick in.

"P.O.E.M. - Professional Organization of English Majors"

[Wastral]

I myself qualify for being disabled/handicapped due to illness under the current "laws", but don't because where there is a will there is a way.

 

Also, I guess I wasn't speaking in regards to those who make lots of $$$ vrs those who don't. Farmers are anything but lazy, and don't make much money. Have a couple farmers in my family as well. I was speaking with regards to the attitude that what is yours should be mine because you have more than I do and life isn't fair.

 

Its not that a couple of my cousins and others I know have illness problems, or are handicaped in anyway, but that they were LAZY, as in refused to work for a better life while expecting those who are working to pay their way for them.

 

I have great respect for a handicapped man, Mark, who works harder than my cousins do and doesn't expect others to make life "fair" or even.

 

Its not the amount of $$$ you make its the attitude that "I" deserve what is yours because you have more than I do. Its contentment issues with life.

 

Brian

 

[Wastral]

I should also note, that there basically are no "poor" in this country. Those that are poor, are usually poor by choice.

 

I don't consider health care a right or a qualifier for being poor.

 

If you have food, shelter, clothing, and a constant job, you aren't poor. You are "poorer" than most in this country, but compared to the world? We are rich without compare. Our "poor" are the worlds rich.

 

Its a matter of perspective.

 

Brian

[KaskadskyjKozak]

[Wastral]

SWEET PIC!!!! Where did you get it!!!

 

The bone in the bowl is the best!

 

Brian