The Jewish problem

[Dechristo]

reading your posts contributes to Post Traumatic Syntax Disorder.

[pc313]

reading your posts contributes to Post Traumatic Syntax Disorder.

That pertty good i should have just said wow their fucked up,PTSD what a Bitch!

Edited January 4, 2009 by pc313

[Dechristo]

Are you sure you're not related to Muffy?

[Raindawg]

First of all, the jack-donkey who chose to title this topic "the Jewish problem", should be chastised for his ignorance or anti-Semitism, it being suggestive of "the Jewish question", which sent MILLIONS of innocent people to their deaths. If you have a problem with Israel, it is an "Israeli problem", not a "Jewish problem". Only about 40% of the world's Jews live in Israel. The rest live elsewhere including another 40% in the U.S.

As one who spent two summers living in Ashkelon, Israel, about a dozen miles north of the Gaza strip, I take this Hamas nonsense personally. Hamas represents the dark side of democracy. As elected representatives of the "Palestinian" people, they choose to react to their perceived injustices by indiscriminately lobbing rockets into Israeli population centers. In contrast, Jewish philosophy abhors civilian deaths, and the Israelis aim to respond by targeting INDIVIDUALS and materials responsible for death and mayhem and by embargos to put pressure on Hamas to exercise moderation. (Hamas, by the way, wishes for the utter destruction of the state of Israel) Hamas typically hides its weapons and ammunition in densely populated centers such as Gaza city, and thus makes it nearly impossible to avoid civilian casualties, which are then paraded as war atrocities. The Israelis forcibly removed their settlements in Gaza a couple of years ago (against the resistance of their own fanatics) in acknowledgement that the territory would eventually become part of a negotiated neighboring Palestinian state. What did they get instead? A bunch of maniacs lobbing missles from the very territory they vacated (some of them hitting Ashkelon and beyond). If the Palestinians want international sympathy, they should adopt the tactics of Ghandi and Mandela, rather than their long stream of homicide bombings, kidnappings, hijackings, random rocket attacks, and other uncivilized mischief. They lost my sympathy long ago at the Munich Olympics in 1972.

 

By the way, if Mexico had a beef with the U.S. and started lobbing rockets into San Diego, how long do you think it would take us to respond? Check out these statistics of rockets launched from the Gaza strip into Israel (and this chart only goes into Jan. 2008):

 

[Bug]

You had me right up to the Mexico analogy.

I don't know the infinite details of what has gone on between arabs and Israel and I definately hate Hammas.

But it just does not seem reasonable to claim that Israel (good point on Israel, not all Jews by the way) is totally innocent of any wrongdoing in all the problems they have with their neighbors.

 

[TREETOAD]

Looks to me like the Jewish people are working on a final solution.

Edited January 4, 2009 by TREETOAD

[sobo]

Check out these statistics of rockets launched from the Gaza strip into Israel (and this chart only goes into Jan. 2008):

I recall hearing on the news recently that around 3,000 rockets and/or mortars were lobbed at Isreal in the 12 months of 2008. The "attacks in 2008" link below states the same statistic that I heard on NPR. That's about the same as 2005, 2006, and 2007 combined in Don's graph, and averages about 8 hits per day for each and every day of the year. That's pretty amazing... and not a little bit frightening. A little Googling and Wiki-ing brings up these citations:

 

Quassam rocket attacks upon Israel from 2001 to 2007

 

Rocket and mortar attacks upon Israel in 2008

 

And look at this! A brand new Wikipedia listing: Rocket and mortar attacks upon Israel in 2009

I expect this page will see regular updates in the coming weeks and months...

[Gary_Yngve]

However, I must call BS on the Wrath of God comment. The Wrath of God assassinations were in direct response to the Palestinian militant organization Black September and its PLO allies killing 11 Israeli athletes at the 1972 Olympic Games in Munich. Surely you must remember that from your history, yes? Once again, a response to an attack from outside its borders, and not a pre-emptive strike.

 

I wouldn't call it a "direct" response when they assassinate folks 10 years later, even when those folks have grown out of terrorism, or when they assassinate an innocent in Norway from poor intelligence.

[Gary_Yngve]

It's fundamentally a Palestinian problem. They have no economy, so people turn to violence. They can't get an economy until the violence stops. Furthermore, their population is skyrocketing, making them even more impoverished.

 

On top of all that, Egypt and Jordan give minimal humanitarian assistance to the Palestinians and don't let them emigrate to them.

[sobo]

However, I must call BS on the Wrath of God comment. The Wrath of God assassinations were in direct response to the Palestinian militant organization Black September and its PLO allies killing 11 Israeli athletes at the 1972 Olympic Games in Munich. Surely you must remember that from your history, yes? Once again, a response to an attack from outside its borders, and not a pre-emptive strike.

I wouldn't call it a "direct" response when they assassinate folks 10 years later, even when those folks have grown out of terrorism, or when they assassinate an innocent in Norway from poor intelligence.

What happened in Lillehammer was an unfortunate case of mistaken identity, I'll grant you that. But despite your line of reasoning, it was a direct response, coming out of the senseless murder of 11 athletes who were "guilty" of nothing other than being Jews. In civilized society, there is no statute of limitations on murder. So I do not begrudge the Mossad for keeping up the hunt on the Israeli Olympians' murderers till all of them were either assassinated or dead by other causes, no matter how many years it took, any more than I do not begrudge the Simon Wiesenthal group for keeping up the hunt for escaped Nazi war criminals. Again, there is no statute of limitations on murder.

[JayB]

It's fundamentally a Palestinian problem. They have no economy, so people turn to violence. They can't get an economy until the violence stops. Furthermore, their population is skyrocketing, making them even more impoverished.

 

On top of all that, Egypt and Jordan give minimal humanitarian assistance to the Palestinians and don't let them emigrate to them.

 

Leaving aside the matter of how their economy got where it is for the moment, why - in your opinion - is it that Egypt, a vocal friend of the Palestinians, has erected a wall to keep the Palestinians out, and sends the army to seal the break every time that the Palestinians punch a hole through it?

 

 

[sobo]

It's fundamentally a Palestinian problem. They have no economy, so people turn to violence. They can't get an economy until the violence stops. Furthermore, their population is skyrocketing, making them even more impoverished.

 

On top of all that, Egypt and Jordan give minimal humanitarian assistance to the Palestinians and don't let them emigrate to them.

 

Leaving aside the matter of how their economy got where it is for the moment, why - in your opinion - is it that Egypt, a vocal friend of the Palestinians, has erected a wall to keep the Palestinians out, and sends the army to seal the break every time that the Palestinians punch a hole through it?

Nay, much more than fundamentally a Palestinian problem, Gary. It is much deeper than that; it's a problem faced by all the Arab-allied states. Jay asks a valid question as to why Egypt doesn't want to see the Gaza Strip explode (although that may already be too late to prevent). To gain some perspective on that question, noodle on this article from last week's Jerusalem Post, (before the Israeli ground invasion): Israel's reluctant allies

 

Interesting read...

...The shooting war is being conducted largely between the pro-Iranian forces and Israel. The pro-Iranian axis seeks to shame the mainstream Arab states and inflame their publics, by use of the shared currency of anti-Israel sentiment.

 

The mainstream Arab elites of Egypt and Saudi Arabia are deeply embarrassed at the turn of events. They want the return of the cozy status quo, in which they could indulge in anti-Israel rhetoric of their own, while relying on American support to keep themselves in power.

 

But this option is becoming increasingly untenable. Hamas's control in Gaza threatens to reveal the extent to which the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has become subsumed within a larger regional conflict - one which, de facto, places Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Israel on the same side.

 

Hence the latest Egyptian attempt to prevent a major Israeli operation into Gaza. Hamas, by destroying the barrier at Rafah during such a confrontation, could present Egypt with the choice of either accepting a mass of unwanted Palestinian refugees onto its territory, or joining the fight against the allies of Iran alongside Israel.

 

Egypt is desperate to avoid either option...

[sobo]

Found this, and just couldn't resist posting it...

Mods, feel free to delete if in bad taste. I thought it was funny, and this is Spray after all.

 

[Gary_Yngve]

Leaving aside the matter of how their economy got where it is for the moment, why - in your opinion - is it that Egypt, a vocal friend of the Palestinians, has erected a wall to keep the Palestinians out, and sends the army to seal the break every time that the Palestinians punch a hole through it?

 

That's a good question. I guess it is pressure from Egypt's neighbors and Egypt's more extreme factions, as well as a desire to keep the Palestinian's someone else's problem and not their problem.

 

Though maybe allowing in refugees now is in Egypt's best interest, to reduce Iranian influence? Our mess w/ Iraq has given Iran tremendous power. (Back when Iraq was the most powerful, Israel was secretly helping Iran.)

[sobo]

...Israel was secretly helping Iran.

WTF are you talking about, Gary? This?

 

Or, more seriously, this?

...Report: Israel Is Secretly Importing Iranian Oil

An Israeli energy newsletter has revealed Israel is secretly buying oil from Iran despite an official boycott. The newsletter EnergiaNews reports Israeli companies get around the boycott by having the oil delivered to European ports, where it is then bought by Israelis. The oil is then imported into Israel by the Eilat-Ashkelon Pipeline Company, which keeps its oil sources secret.

 

List some instances of this "secret assistance" and cite your sources, Gary.

[JayB]

to Sobo. I hereby grant you the dubious and most likely wholly unwanted honor of serving as my official proxy in this thread.

[sobo]

Ooooooooooo, I would never extend any pretensions to the Throne, by way of granted proxy or otherwise.

The Throne belongs to you. I am just a humble observer of history; a citer of sources and works of others. I avert my eyes...

[Bug]

...Israel was secretly helping Iran.

WTF are you talking about, Gary? This?

 

Or, more seriously, this?

...Report: Israel Is Secretly Importing Iranian Oil

An Israeli energy newsletter has revealed Israel is secretly buying oil from Iran despite an official boycott. The newsletter EnergiaNews reports Israeli companies get around the boycott by having the oil delivered to European ports, where it is then bought by Israelis. The oil is then imported into Israel by the Eilat-Ashkelon Pipeline Company, which keeps its oil sources secret.

 

List some instances of this "secret assistance" and cite your sources, Gary.

 

It wouldn't be secret anymore then would it?

Maybe you should stick to butt shots for now.

Don't hurt me. I'm just kidding.

[sobo]

Oh Kieth, don't be so sardonically obtuse. Secrets, the secrecy of which is no more, were always intended to remain secret. I asked that Gary supply some citations of such "secret succor" that has been discovered, but which was intended to remain concealed by the participant(s).

 

And I promise I won't hurt you... ever. Unless up close and personal buttshots are painful to you...

 

 

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

[pc313]

I personally would rather see a boxing match!

 

[Bug]

I started to search for an appropriate response on the internet.

That was a mistake.

 

[sobo]

Of course it was a mistake. I invented the internet, remember? All teh interwebs are belong to me.

[Fairweather]

 

 

 

Hmmm. Definitely South Washington Cascades. White Pass region. Tumac Mountain area. Blankenship Lake?

[sobo]

FW,

I'm surprised at your lack of resourcefulness. Right-click on the pic, select Properties. Your question will be answered.

[j_b]

These one-sided lists of palestinian violence are pathetic and again shouldn't convince anyone that Israel only retaliates to the extremists on the other side. Here is the valuable perspective of israelis in Sderot (the community near Gaza that reveived 1000's of rockets since 2001): http://www.huffingtonpost.com/adam-horowitz/even-in-sderot-israelis-s_b_154771.html

 

Isn't it revealing how rightwing blowhards always can justify their own advocacy of violence but the little brown people should content themselves with placing flowers in the guns of occupying armies (the guns are courtesy of the US taxpayer in this case)? As usual Greenwald is right on target: http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/01/04/terrorism/index.html

 

I don't understand how Egyptian policy making represent evidence of palestinian wrong-doing. There is in turn plenty of evidence showing that arab governments have sold palestinians down the river.

 

Finally, your own lack of skepticism toward Israeli propaganda is the problem JayB not the opposite. It took me about 30 seconds to find numerous links that document israeli collaboration with Iran during the Iran-Iraq war. Here is one:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Iran_during_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_war

 

 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2009 by j_b