The Jewish problem

[Peter_Puget]

I was in Damascus in 83 and there was a Jewish quarter. They had their own shops in the market in the ancient city.

I talked to them about what it was like and they seemed happy to be there. In one case, the man had taken over ownership of the shop from his father after growing up there.

 

It would be interesting to go back and see what has happened.

 

You are quite perceptive but I imagine that what has happened since 1983 is pretty much what happened from 1948 thru 1986 -A period of fair play and contentment for all.

 

 

Syrian Jewish Population

1948 ~30k

1976 ~4.5k

2008 < 30

 

Short History for others not as educated and well traveled as you:

 

SYRIA

Jews had lived in Syria since biblical times. The Jewish population of the area increased significantly after the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492. Throughout the generations, the main Jewish communities were to be found in Damascus and Aleppo. In 1943, the Jewish community of Syria had 30,000 members. In 1945, in an attempt to thwart efforts to establish a Jewish homeland, the government restricted immigration to Israel, and Jewish property was burned and looted. The government then froze Jewish bank accounts and confiscated their property.

 

Syrian Jewry supported the aspirations of the Arab nationalists and Zionism, and believed that the two parties could be reconciled and that the conflict in Palestine could be resolved. Following Syrian independence from France in 1946, however, attacks against Jews and their property increased, culminating in the pogroms of 1947, which left all shops and synagogues in Aleppo in ruins. Thousands of Jews fled the country, approximatly 10,000 to the United States, and another 5,000 to Israel, and their homes and property were taken over by the local Muslims.

 

For the next decades, those Syrian Jews that remained were, in effect, hostages of a hostile regime. They could leave Syria only on the condition that they leave members of their family behind. Jews were stripped of their citizenship, and experienced employment discrimination. They had their assets frozen and property confiscated. The community lived under siege, constantly under surveillance of the secret police.

 

The last Jews to leave Syria departed with the chief rabbi in October 1994. Prior to 1947, there were some 30,000 Jews who made up three distinct communities: the Kurdish-speaking Jews of Kamishli, the Jews of Aleppo with roots in Spain, and the original eastern Jews of Damascus, called Must'arab. Today, only a tiny remnant of these communities remains

 

 

[mkporwit]

Nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

[Mtguide]

I have a Jewish friend (born and raised in the US) who had been living for about 18 months in a Kibbutz in Israel when the "October War" started with Egypt. My friend, in his 20's at the time, became increasingly fed up with the constant propagandizing from the Israeli government and from those who ran the kibbutz. He decided to leave the kibbutz, disguised himself as an Arab by dying his skin brown with walnut juice, and somehow managed to go to Egypt to see for himself what was going on. He literally risked his life to do this. He came away convinced that the Israelis were completely at fault. He never returned to the kibbutz, booked passage home to the US, and while not renouncing his religion and upbringing, has been very active over the years promoting initiatives for a Palestinian homeland and in various pro-peace groups within Israel.

 

One of my own favorite incidents occurred during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon back in the late 80's. At the UN, the Israeli ambassador stood up and during his presentation, made a direct reference to the people and state of Israel as "the Chosen People of God". In response, the Saudi oil minister, Yamani Zaki, said. "If indeed this is true, that the Jews are the Chosen People of God, then this is discrimination on the part of God!" The entire UN chamber collapsed in laughter, and the Israeli ambassador quickly sat down, red-faced and fuming.

 

The simple fact is that there is more than enough guilt to go around, on all sides (including the US and European nations), so much blood spilled that it really no longer matters who was, is, or shall yet be, to blame. The history is by now so twisted and convoluted as to make it impossible to unravel. The most essential thing is to find a way to stop the bloodshed as quickly as possible, and to base all further actions in the region on basic, essential principles of practical humanity and the international rule of law. A moratorium/cease-fire has to be imposed, with violations punishable by immediate incarceration regardless of military rank or civil status. Unfortunately, there is no longer any practical way to implement this--it's the job the UN was designed for, but the member nations, including the US, have all decided they don't want to follow anyone's rules but their own. Funding and international will isn't there.

 

I always liked the solution proposed by an old rancher who was neighbor of mine in Wyoming some years ago. He said that what should be done is to take everyone who wants to fight, and ship them all to someplace like the middle of the Sahara desert or outer Mongolia's Gobi desert, where they couldn't hurt anything, fence the whole place off permanently, lock them in there, give them whatever personal weapons they desired, and just let 'em go at it to their heart's content.In the meantime the rest of us could get on about the business of daily life without some bunch of arrogant assholes telling us who we had to go kill and why.

 

Admittedly far-fetched and overly simplistic-- but I'd still like to try it.Sometimes simple works pretty well. After all, it was Ted Kennedy who said in the late 60's that "the way to bring the soldiers home from Vietnam, is in ships! In planes!...".

 

 

[sobo]

Com'on Sobo. Don't be spineless.

You basically just agreed with me.

Put your "solution" out there. Or at least a first couple of steps.

I don't see how what I wrote is "spineless", and I never set out to disagree with you, Keith.

I think you would do well to reread my 4:13 p.m. post, which was undergoing a refining edit while you were posting the above quote. I merely provide information that shows that this conflict has been an ongoing thorn in the participants' sides for thousands of years, was not created by the primary players, is not black and white, and is not rooted in the relatively recent attacks initiated by Hamas and responded to by the IDF.

 

I may be wrong, or it may be my Western media sources, but it seems to me that every time Israel throws a few missiles or launches a couple of airstrikes across the border, it was preceded by an attack from outside its borders, i.e., Hamas, or Fatah or the PLO in earlier times. I cannot recall a time when the IDF launched a pre-emptive attack, except in 1967, and that was in response to Egypt expelling the UN peacekeeping force immediately before the Six-Day War broke out. Israel saw itself alone (the US was "busy" in Vietnam and not interested in what Israel was getting itself into), pitted against the entire Arab world, and decided to act, likely out of self-preservation. And they did act... decisively. I dare say it could not have been a huge surprise to the Arab armies when they saw the IDF coming, but I digress.

 

If you want a solution from me, I don't have one. But I would posit that any workable solution just might start with Israel's neighbors laying off trying to kill Jews all the time. By this point, it should be obvious to any observer that the Israelis believe firmly in the Eye for an Eye Doctine. If someone throws a few rocks at them, they're going to throw a few rocks right back. It ain't rocket science.

[sobo]

The simple fact is that there is more than enough guilt to go around, on all sides (including the US and European nations), so much blood spilled that it really no longer matters who was, is, or shall yet be, to blame. The history is by now so twisted and convoluted as to make it impossible to unravel. The most essential thing is to find a way to stop the bloodshed as quickly as possible, and to base all further actions in the region on basic, essential principles of practical humanity and the international rule of law.

Bug,

This is what I was trying to get across. ^^

I think a reasonable way to stop the bloodshed is to stop instigating it in the first place and just lay off the indiscriminate lobbing of missiles and rockets across a border, no? Just how difficult is that for Hamas to understand?

[Fairweather]

Bug,

This is what I was trying to get across. ^^

I think a reasonable way to stop the bloodshed is to stop instigating it in the first place and just lay off the indiscriminate lobbing of missiles and rockets across a border, no? Just how difficult is that for Hamas to understand?

 

Exactly. Well said.

 

 

[pc313]

The simple fact is that there is more than enough guilt to go around, on all sides (including the US and European nations), so much blood spilled that it really no longer matters who was, is, or shall yet be, to blame. The history is by now so twisted and convoluted as to make it impossible to unravel. The most essential thing is to find a way to stop the bloodshed as quickly as possible, and to base all further actions in the region on basic, essential principles of practical humanity and the international rule of law.

Bug,

This is what I was trying to get across. ^^

I think a reasonable way to stop the bloodshed is to stop instigating it in the first place and just lay off the indiscriminate lobbing of missiles and rockets across a border, no? Just how difficult is that for Hamas to understand?

 

Well they voted HAMAS in knowing the out come,so i don't have to much sympathy for them and if they were smart they should turn on HAMAS now instead of crying about return fire taking out their Leaders and Rocket filled houses!

 

 

[sobo]

Well they voted HAMAS in knowing the out come,so i don't have to much sympathy for them and if they were smart they should turn on HAMAS now instead of crying about return fire taking out their Leaders and Rocket filled houses!

Exactly! Like FW said on Page 1: "They voted in Hamas. They made their bed."

Now they're having second thoughts about getting between the sheets.

It's too late for that, or maybe it's time to change the sheets again.

[j_b]

Don't believe the spin. No evidence is ever presented that Hamas first provoked Israel. Until the land grabbing by israeli settlers stops, there will be no peace.

[j_b]

They voted for Hamas because after Arafat's death, Fatah was going to make peace on terms that was unacceptable to the majority of Palestinians.

[Fairweather]

Don't believe the spin. No evidence is ever presented that Hamas first provoked Israel. Until the land grabbing by israeli settlers stops, there will be no peace.

 

Remaining Israeli settlers were forcibly removed from Gaza in 2005/06 by Israel in exchange for peace. Guess it didn't work. And let's not forget the Israeli soldier kidnapped and held for over 2 years. No evidence or Hamas provocation? You're living in a whole 'nuther dimension.

 

http://www.redorbit.com/news/general/214860/israel_moves_against_remaining_gaza_settlements/

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/22/AR2005082200114.html

Edited January 3, 2009 by Fairweather

[j_b]

A regurgitation of a one-sided version of facts shouldn't convince anyone.

[Hugh Conway]

Israeli girls are hot and dirty.

 

I don't see a problem at all

[billcoe]

Israeli girls are hot and dirty.

 

I don't see a problem at all

 

I'm not buying that till I see some naked pictures.

[pc313]

They voted for Hamas because after Arafat's death, Fatah was going to make peace on terms that was unacceptable to the majority of Palestinians.

 

Clinton tryed to get Arafat and the Palestinians to agree to a peace Treaty with Israel at Camp David and got nowhere,and at that time alot of them worked in Isreal,and would have been the beginning of the end,the rest could have been worked out. Its hard to say how far along they would be by now,but they were given BILLIONS in aid at the time WTF!!

 

So 4 years later as Isreals tanks were knocking down his compound walls he was on the phone saying O.K. i'll take the deal,but by then he was a dead stick with no control over the Palestinians and their suicide bombers!

 

With HAMAS a peace deal with Isreal is out of the question as was stated by one of their leaders on TV News the day before his house and him Evaporated,so maybe peace talks might start when they run out of HAMAS leaders,but even the IRA signed a peace deal and did so with the Leader behind bars!

Edited January 3, 2009 by pc313

[Fairweather]

A regurgitation of a one-sided version of facts shouldn't convince anyone.

 

Your regurgitation of anti-Semitic rage will, sadly, gather believers.

 

 

Edited January 3, 2009 by Fairweather

[Bug]

Yeah.

Punch em agin.

That'll make em be nice.

 

Sobo, thanks for the reply. It was spirited and well stated.

I'm sorry if I upset you. I just wanted you to weigh in. That's a compliment by the way.

Consider for a moment that our news has been owned and operated by liberals behind the curtains. As a liberal I prefer it to right wingers behind the curtains but I digress.

The media has been playing to Israel as long as I have been alive. Probably you too. Even the BBC is still trying to asuage its guilt. Funny how we don't hear much from the arab side. It would seem easy to assume they just don't want to talk to us. But the arabs I have talked to, many were well educated, intelligent people, had a lot to say about the tactics and strategies of Israel and its influence over our media. For instance, how long would any politician last if he/she were to say anything like I have said here? It just isn't popular.

Just on face value, ANY affront to the "rightousness" of Israel is met with "Jew hater", "anti-semite" (even though arabs are technically semetic also), and so forth.

We have been getting the GW version all our lives. The press in Vietnam was a fluke and it blew up Johnson's face. Nixon's too.

It likely will not happen again for quite awhile. Meanwhile "Israel = good, arabs = bad".

 

Just a footnote here. Hammas sucks big time. But they wouldn't have the influence they do without a reason for people to WANT to follow them. Remove that reason and we will get back to progress. With things all spun out of control again, it will not happen soon. But I would like to see it stated as a goal and have it stated that we would also expect Israel to ease up a bit as Hammas looses power.

 

[j_b]

Let it be clear that the only person here who advocates violence against semitic people is Fairweather.

[ashw_justin]

rocket attacks on civilian targets... are stupid and immoral

aerial bombing campaign of largely harmless urban areas... is even stupider and immoral...er

 

On the other hand virtually bottomless, completely lopsided material, financial, and political support for the whiter of the two murderous sects... well that my friends is just a little part of what we're calling Freedom, Democracy, and the American Way these days. Heillelujah.

[j_b]

They voted for Hamas because after Arafat's death, Fatah was going to make peace on terms that was unacceptable to the majority of Palestinians.

 

Clinton tryed to get Arafat and the Palestinians to agree to a peace Treaty with Israel at Camp David and got nowhere,and at that time alot of them worked in Isreal,and would have been the beginning of the end,the rest could have been worked out. Its hard to say how far along they would be by now,but they were given BILLIONS in aid at the time WTF!!

 

So 4 years later as Isreals tanks were knocking down his compound walls he was on the phone saying O.K. i'll take the deal,but by then he was a dead stick with no control over the Palestinians and their suicide bombers!

 

It is in fact a lot more complicated:

 

"In December 2000 President Clinton presented a "bridging proposal" aimed at ending the most recent Al-Aqsa Intifada culminating with the Taba Summit (January 22 and January 28, 2001). After the November 2000 US presidential elections, President Clinton was on his way out while George W. Bush was waiting in the wings. This was as far as Barak would take the peace process in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It put the Oslo peace process, from the time of Madrid Conference of 1991 on indefinite hold. In spite of Barak's concessions to the Palestinians, the majority of Israelis did not support him as seen in Ariel Sharon's rejection of Arafat's position vindicated with his election as prime minister on February 6, 2001."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taba_Summit#Summary

[Fairweather]

Clinton tryed to get Arafat and the Palestinians to agree to a peace Treaty with Israel at Camp David and got nowhere,and at that time alot of them worked in Isreal,and would have been the beginning of the end,the rest could have been worked out. Its hard to say how far along they would be by now,but they were given BILLIONS in aid at the time WTF!!

 

 

Most of those billions went into Arafat and Fatah member's private overseas bank accounts. Hamas was elected (in Gaza), basically, because they were not as corrupt as Fatah.

[Fairweather]

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9900E1D8153BF932A15752C0A9649C8B63

 

Published: January 21, 2002

 

As president, Bill Clinton labored to end the dispute between Israelis and Palestinians. Today, he came back here to bask in a warm Israeli welcome, to call on both sides to keep trying, and to place the blame for his peace initiative's failure squarely on Yasir Arafat, the Palestinian leader.

[j_b]

Arafat was accused of lack of transparency but there isn't actual 'proof' of his being corrupt. Corruption among politicians in Israel is however coined to be "epidemic" by the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6276071.stm

 

Both the current israeli prime minister and Sharon before him were/are accused of corruption.

[j_b]

The US corporate media, including the NYT, has no credibility w.r.t. the palestine isssue:"The Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, fighting an election campaign, said that "nothing is agreed upon until everything is agreed upon " and said that he could not commit a subsequent government to what he called the "ideas" coming out of the talks. With the election of Ariel Sharon in February 2001, time ran out."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6666393.stm

[Fairweather]

Israel can deal with it's own corruption. By many accounts, Arafat died with over $1B net worth. Money that was donated by the international community to help palestinians, not line his pockets.