[TR] Beacon Rawk - Bitch Slapped on the Axe of Karma (5.10c A3 III) 11/8/2008

[denalidave]

I'm looking to get out on Sat, gotta work Sunday. Have not heard back from any of my regular partners yet.

[JosephH]

I'm down for both days so I'd be happy to get out with you sat. and do somthing. I've also got to get up to retreive the half a rack I have up on Menopause at the high anchor if anyone is at all curious about it.

[ivan]

dave - me n' geoff and maybe my friend mike will be out 'roudn 730 saturday - i think jim and a friend will be out aroudn 10 after that and geoff will taking them up young warriors

[denalidave]

Not sure if I can get out that early on Sat Ivan, I was thinking around 9 or 10 so the wife can go for a run or bike ride before I go climbing. Not sure if I'm up to the upper pitch on Menopause but am up for something in the 5.10 range Joseph. I'm hoping to have a better idea of a start time by Friday evening. Weather looks promising.

[JosephH]

I now have a partner now for Sunday, will be out Saturday but not on an early start myself.

[ivan]

what the hell should i do w/ my one day of freedom?

 

another crack at silver crow?

was thinking i should do jensen's again this season. maybe see just how much jeff's hard work was worth it this past summer?

but then i've also wanted to do the last pitch of flight time since last year(if only the thought of hanging off that goddamn worthless anchor wasn't so nasaeuating)

repeat ground zero? to riverside? to top out?

the time doesn't feel right for smooth dancer - i'm thinking that'll have to be next summer...

why did the wet winter have to up and get here so damn fast?

 

ow, wait, what was that one wayne mentioned above land of the little people?

 

shit!

[geoff]

I heard you were done for the year after a "close call" at the base of Riverside. If not, we'll be out at first light and there has been talk of staying through the full moon's sparkling light, although I may have leave around dark.

 

I'm guessing there's gonna be a full on party (not that kind of party though Mr. Ben) tomorrow.

 

Anyhow, if the rock blows then it simply wasn't meant to be. Maybe that's what I'll call the route if it comes down on my watch. New route = new name. I'd say not getting bonked by a rock that is,as some say, not long for this world is a better outcome than letting a few folks continue their Pipedream, but that name's been taken.

 

I figure the real issue is the definition of loose. One man's loose rock is another man's almost 100% bomber hold. I've seen this play out in the midst of dire warnings of loose rock on other routes. It is really just your perspective. Who knows what a trundled death block may expose? Maybe a sweet ass party (not that kind) ledge.

 

 

[JosephH]

I heard you were done for the year after a "close call" at the base of Riverside. If not, we'll be out at first light and there has been talk of staying through the full moon's sparkling light, although I may have leave around dark.

Geoff, no not at all, I was in LA for a week and then have just been working like a fiend. The "close call" was pretty straightforward and automatic as they go. I wouldn't in any way call it a non-event and it's a good thing it's a big, well-padded shelf up there. I'd like to think anyone would have responded the same, though it did get me wondering if younger folks, who for the most part typically don't have much exposure to or experience with bad or no anchors stanced belays, would know how to react or possess the same reflexes. It certainly had the potential for a bad outcome otherwise. Bad judgment on my part allowing the situation, however, but the only obvious 'canonical' anchor puts the belayer in a less then optimal position relative to the climber. It was a case where I should have gone with the anchor regardless.

 

Anyhow, if the rock blows then it simply wasn't meant to be. Maybe that's what I'll call the route if it comes down on my watch. New route = new name. I'd say not getting bonked by a rock that is,as some say, not long for this world is a better outcome than letting a few folks continue their Pipedream, but that name's been taken.

Again, I completely disagree - I'd say not getting on the line if you can't climb through it without screwing it up is the far better alternative. There's nothing "oh well" about the situation except that folks might take a cavalier attitude towards heading up stuff they aren't equipped to deal with other than in the crudest way and blow it for folks who can.

 

I figure the real issue is the definition of loose. One man's loose rock is another man's almost 100% bomber hold. I've seen this play out in the midst of dire warnings of loose rock on other routes. It is really just your perspective. Who knows what a trundled death block may expose? Maybe a sweet ass party (not that kind) ledge.

Being one of the few who've been up on and past it I'm pretty sure the free climbing will be substantially fucked if it comes down. To be honest, I can't believe you guys are even be arguing that it's cool to just barrel on through such situation with complete disregard for the history of prior ascents by multiple parties and the reality that what's there is delicate but proven entirely workable. I find it incredibly inconsiderate at best.

[markd]

joseph,

is there a chance that you are ever wrong? not trying to be rude, but you always seem so certain you're right about everything.

[billcoe]

Again, I completely disagree - I'd say not getting on the line if you can't climb through it without screwing it up is the far better alternative.

I suspect that a person would only know this after the fact.

 

 

As far as loose rocks goes, I've noticed that in most areas, occasionally even today's solid blocks can come crashing down on their own after a winter or 3. "Stasis" is not a word normally utilized in or associated with, geology.

 

Examples: Beacon

 

Yosemite, new routes opening up for Glacier

[denalidave]

Partner found, sounds like we will be on either Bluebird or Dod's mid morning... You still looking for someone to tie in with Joseph?

[JosephH]

joseph,

is there a chance that you are ever wrong? not trying to be rude, but you always seem so certain you're right about everything.

 

Mark, that panel has been traveled over by myself and my partner and by McGown & Co. at least twice - that makes six times at a minimum that the panel has been climbed (aid and free) past it without dumping it. Could just be me, but I would think that would set a precedent and standard for travel over the panel. Pardon me if if I think someone going up there and putting at risk or dumping it deliberately is uncool. There's no need for that panel to come down any other way than on its own. Hey, I can't stop anyone from climbing the line, but as I said it is a breathtaking free climb over the arch of the arena to the top of it - it's simply beyond me why anyone would jeopordize that possibility. This is the first time I've had any problems whatsoever with Ivan's aid/french proclivities, but I fail to see on what basis he feels it's fine to go up and deliberately, or through clumbsiness, ruin a spectacular and unique stretch of free climbing.

[JosephH]

Bill, deliberately trundling a dangerous stone that poses a clear hazard on a popular route is one thing. The panel up from Pipeline is in no such location and I at least do not consider it a hazard to climb over as your belayer is entirely sheltered and the odds of being hurt by any of it as you both come off the headwall would be slim. But again, it can and has been climbed over successfully, why put that at risk...?

[willstrickland]

So this pitch with the loose block has never been freed, correct?

 

And Joe tried to free it once, in like 1947 or something, but isn't currently trying to free it, nor is anyone else, correct?

 

So it's still an aid pitch, yeah? If I'm aid climbing an aid route that's never gone free and nobody is currently working to free it, and there's dangerous loose shit I can easily trundle and still get by it...buh bye, there it goes.

 

Joe, the way I see it you need to get up there and start trying to free it right now or you have no standing in the issue.

 

I know you envision yourself as some kind of overlord of the place, but frankly not every decision there is your call. People get a little weary of the "well back in the day, me and my buddy Billybob Tanken-Whippers ran it out 98 feet over crack n ups and will get back over there sometime...no really, we will get back to it one day even though we haven't tried it in 20 years, no stop laughing, we're really going back up there".

 

If it's loose enough to be a real concern you got two options:

 

1. Accept that it will eventually be gone anyway, whether it becomes a free route or not, either by weathering or someone pulling it off on accident. Which, as Bill notes, could yield anything from impossible to easier than before, and you'll never know until it comes off.

 

or

 

2. Pump a tube a glue behind it.

 

 

[ivan]

This is the first time I've had any problems whatsoever with Ivan's aid/french proclivities, but I fail to see on what basis he feels it's fine to go up and deliberately, or through clumbsiness, ruin a spectacular and unique stretch of free climbing.

uhmm, wtf are you talking about? i didn't ruin shit up there and in fact left when i was worried about bringing it down - duh!

 

still, say i went back there and it came down - would this give you the right to label me as clumsy? fuck no - like bill's pic shows, rocks do become progressively more unstable over time, and someday a butterfly will fart on that panel, and it will come down - or will it be b/c the buttefly's clumsy?

[markd]

my comment was more in regard to the fact that you're always so sure that your train of thought is: a) correct, and b) the only option - to you there is no option "c". in some cases you're right; however, not always.

 

if that route means so much to you, why haven't you gone back since the 80s to try it? the rock above there is not "naturally" loose; it was dynamited! you are not working with the natural environment up there.

 

one more thought: you're SURE this specific rock shouldn't be trundled, so it isn't, yet, you're sure other rocks should be trundled, so you trundle. do you see the pattern?

[JosephH]

So this pitch with the loose block has never been freed, correct?

 

And Joe tried to free it once, in like 1947 or something, but isn't currently trying to free it, nor is anyone else, correct?

 

The pitch hasn't been freed, but the arching traverse has. From my earlier inspection of the panel I'm pretty damn sure it never will be if it's dumped.

 

So it's still an aid pitch, yeah? If I'm aid climbing an aid route that's never gone free and nobody is currently working to free it, and there's dangerous loose shit I can easily trundle and still get by it...buh bye, there it goes.

 

The point is it has been worked as a free pitch and it has been a long standing goal to get back on it. Now Ivan may want to aid those lines, but McGown aided through the panel at least twice and set the precedent for aid as well. That any of you would argue for dumping a panel with that history of ascents is simply beyond me and as I said, incredibly inconsiderate of the free climbing possibilities of the line. And for what? To jug on through and dispose of the panel as an inconvenience? Like I said, pardon me if I think that sucks in the extreme.

 

I know you envision yourself as some kind of overlord of the place, but frankly not every decision there is your call. People get a little weary of the "well back in the day, me and my buddy Billybob Tanken-Whippers ran it out 98 feet over crack n ups and will get back over there sometime...no really, we will get back to it one day even though we haven't tried it in 20 years, no stop laughing, we're really going back up there".

 

This has nothing whatsoever with what I think of myself in relationship to Beaon - this is strictly about a single route clash of aid versus free climbing interests. And I have no interest in being any kind of 'overlord' - my sole concern and interest is that Beacon remain a trad area and that it's open every possible day it can be each year. That's where my story with Beacon begins and ends. So far those efforts have yielded a couple of extra months of climbing at Beacon over the past four years.

 

you'll never know until it comes off.

My partner and I both examined the panel in detail when we climbed it. It is actually not at all the big mystery you folks are making it out to be - nothing is 100%, but the odds are real good it will never be free climbed again without it.

[geoff]

Mostly joking really. Just trying to help Ivan with his goal of a thousand views.

 

 

[kevbone]

. The panel up from Pipeline is in no such location and I at least do not consider it a hazard to climb over as your belayer is entirely sheltered

 

 

Only if you belay from the pipeline anchor, what about those on the ground climbing windsurfer/riseup/free for all/free for some? They would all be a risk.

 

In the the end of the day....if its loose and came come off with your hands......bye bye.

 

[kevbone]

but the odds are real good it will never be free climbed again without it.

 

 

Pretty arrogant to state it will never go free without this panel. You mean you and I will never free it......I bet some strong MFer could climb it free.

 

The entire cave needs to be RAPPED into and cleaned with a hammer.

[willstrickland]

The belayer being sheltered is great. So what happens to the unfortunate would-be free climbing leader who pulls it off?

[JosephH]

uhmm, wtf are you talking about? i didn't ruin shit up there and in fact left when i was worried about bringing it down - duh!

 

still, say i went back there and it came down - would this give you the right to label me as clumsy? fuck no - like bill's pic shows, rocks do become progressively more unstable over time, and someday a butterfly will fart on that panel, and it will come down - or will it be b/c the buttefly's clumsy?

 

Ivan, I like you and admire your spirit for getting after stuff, especially obscure stuff like this. But to be honest - and it's not like I haven't mentioned it - I'm endlessly surprised you don't put more into working on free climbing if only for the sake of your free soloing proclivities. And from what I've watched, I wouldn't characterize your climbing as 'delicate' - not an judgment statement, just what I've observed. You're entirely right - the panel could have shifted as Bill suggests over time and a butterfly landing on it could take it off - but I don't believe that's the case because I don't think it would still be up there if it was in that delicate of a condition. So when I say 'clumnsy' I mean aid climbing is inherently clumsy compared to free climbing relative to the limited options for where your hips, legs, and feet go with regard to them bearing pressure against the panel as your get past it - you just don't have a ton of options when you're in aiders, you basically hang where you hang and against what you're against.

 

Look, if you absolutely must climb it you must climb it, if it dumps it dumps; what's especially disconcerting to me is all this completely cavalier talk of deliberately dumping a panel with it's history.

[JosephH]

but the odds are real good it will never be free climbed again without it.

 

 

Pretty arrogant to state it will never go free without this panel. You mean you and I will never free it......I bet some strong MFer could climb it free.

 

The entire cave needs to be RAPPED into and cleaned with a hammer.

 

Of course, this is yet another case where you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about and the odds are real damn good you could rap hammer and bolt the shit out of it and you'd still never lay a hand on it...

[markd]

joseph,

your last post is, case-and-point what i'm trying to convey. now you're telling ivan what he should be focusing on with his climbing, because YOU think it's right. in all honesty, what do you know about aid climbing anyway? do you ever aid climb?

[JosephH]

. The panel up from Pipeline is in no such location and I at least do not consider it a hazard to climb over as your belayer is entirely sheltered

 

 

Only if you belay from the pipeline anchor, what about those on the ground climbing windsurfer/riseup/free for all/free for some? They would all be a risk.

 

In the the end of the day....if its loose and came come off with your hands......bye bye.

 

The pipeline anchor is the belay. Yet another case of not knowing what you talking about - the panel would pose little to no threat to anyone climbing on those other routes if it came down. And if anyone turned up to climb those lines who had half a brain and was concerned about it they'd go elsewhere for a bit.