Weight Training & Dead lifts

[Bronco]

Cortnay:

Why are my upper hamstrings and lower gluts sore after performing deadlift exercise? I typically "warm up" with a 30 minute run and do 20 - 25 reps of a lighter weight. When I started this a few months ago I thought the soreness would go away after the muscle group got used to the exercise but, I am still getting sore. WDF?

Oh yeah, I found a good article on weight training for climbers:

http://www.rockandice.com/index.phtml?section=performance_show&content_id=180

[jon]

How many times do you dead lift a week? Are you also doing things like squats or leg press, and how often are you doing those?

[freeclimb9]

Try a Good Morning lift if you want to really toast your hamstrings.

[DCramer]

I don’t read climbing mags but I checked out that link and was surprised how closely it matched with a program prescribed to me by Karl K. I even purchased a one-arm handle to do it that is still at the Seattle Vertical World. One thing that he thought very important was dips. The R&I article has no mention of them. The other significant difference was that he liked squats and not dead lifts.

Courtney. What do you think of the R&I program, Dips and Squat vs. dealifts?

[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: DCramer ]

[jon]

After reading that article I'd be really careful about reading a climbing magazine article and going to do a lift like dead lift or squats. As simple as they make it sound there is serious technique and other strengthening involved in doing those lifts. You could get really hurt doing those, and I’ve actually seen it happen. As I’m starting to write this and reading the dead lift thing over and over it’s starting to piss me off.

Contrary to the article I was taught not to squat, dead lift or power clean with your head back like they say in the article. People believe that putting your head back like that is better for your back. It’s not. It puts unnecessary stress on you neck and promotes over-curvature of the spine. By looking at the ceiling you are not looking at the most important thing, your fucking technique (yes I’m getting really pissed). Additionally the key to not hurting your back is to have a very powerful midsection, meaning abs, obliques, and lower back. Your abs should be so tight during these lifts that someone could hit you there without fazing you. This may be the most important thing and he doesn’t even mention it, unfuckingbelievable.

I'm not implying anything about Bronco here just in general I’d be very reticent to use what I read in a climbing magazine as my primary source for info for weight training.

[Bronco]

quote:

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Originally posted by jon:

How many times do you dead lift a week? Are you also doing things like squats or leg press, and how often are you doing those?

---

A single set of dead lifts twice a week (or so)

Squats with same frequency and weight, no leg press.

Ya know, I was thinking about it and because I am lazy and dont want to change weights I just grab my curl bar ( I work out at home ) for performing the dead lifts which has all 10lb or smaller plates making the bar only about 3" off of the ground as opposed to the larger plates like you see in the pics of the rock and ice workout. I think I'll try to start the lift a little higher, (use a stack of books or something) maybe I am getting too low and straining my hamstrings too much. ouch!

[Bronco]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jon:

After reading that article I'd be really careful about reading a climbing magazine article and going to do a lift like dead lift or squats. As simple as they make it sound there is serious technique and other strengthening involved in doing those lifts. You could get really hurt doing those, and I’ve actually seen it happen. As I’m starting to write this and reading the dead lift thing over and over it’s starting to piss me off.

Contrary to the article I was taught not to squat, dead lift or power clean with your head back like they say in the article. People believe that putting your head back like that is better for your back. It’s not. It puts unnecessary stress on you neck and promotes over-curvature of the spine. By looking at the ceiling you are not looking at the most important thing, your fucking technique (yes I’m getting really pissed). Additionally the key to not hurting your back is to have a very powerful midsection, meaning abs, obliques, and lower back. Your abs should be so tight during these lifts that someone could hit you there without fazing you. This may be the most important thing and he doesn’t even mention it, unfuckingbelievable.

I'm not implying anything about Bronco here just in general I’d be very reticent to use what I read in a climbing magazine as my primary source for info for weight training.

---

come on jon - consider the source, it's a climbing website everything on there could hurt you. But I do agree with you about the importance of technique on these lifts.

[offwidthclimber]

smart muscles part II, from the March issue http://www.rockandice.com/index.phtml?section=performance_show&content_id=182 is what has started helping me. this section shows lifting to balance oppositional muscles for injury reduction.

i've already noticed some improvement in elbow tendonitis and with my shoulder.

peace.

[DCramer]

Jon's comments made me go back and read the R&I article. Technique details aside I think the biggest takeaway is to create a workout with a limited number of lifts working opposing muscle groups. I would throw out the regular wrist curls and seated one arm pulls. I would also use more reps and less weight for the lateral raise. Additionally I would add forearm pronation and supination excercises. The goal is to have a small (4-5) core group of excercises (eg Bench, Lat Pull, Dips, Squats) augmented by a few other supporting excercises. The core group excercises all have a power orientation. Anyway thats my plan for world domination. Am I out to lunch Courtney?

[Figger_Eight]

Keeping your head back is just a way to cue people to retain a neutral spine in this lift. Unless you have someone standing there watching you, it's easy to round your back off and transfer the weight of the barbell from the big muscles in your hip girdle and a stabilized spinal column, to the small muscles in your lower and middle back. As long as you're conscious of not hyper-extending your back, the trade-off between a possible touch of cervical next strain vs. potential lower back injury is acceptable.

Bronco, if you're starting your lift in a poor position, you're putting undo strain on a bunch of muscles just to get in a good position to do the lift. Just my dos centavos.

Figger Eight (BS-Exercise Science).

[haireball]

I love the dead-lift. It recruits more muscle-groups than any other lift. I haven't read the article in question, but I wouldn't count on a written description of the lift to help my form anyway. I suggest using an experienced spotter (preferably experienced trainer) if you're new to the lift. Have him/her critique your form, and work light until your form becomes habitually perfect. (maybe a couple of months...) This is critically important, because I've found that on an unfamiliar lift, sometimes the CORRECT form doesn't FEEL correct at first. The squat is an excellent case in point, since newbies often complain (when a trainer corrects their form) that they feel like they might fall over backwards if they do the lift w/ perfect form. takes some getting used to...

My "home" gym has the power cage facing a mirror, and I use that mirror to monitor my form on deadlifts and squats. My favorite form "key" on both of these lifts is to watch hips & shoulders. If I see my hips rising faster than my shoulders at any point during the lift, I know I've got a problem.

[Courtenay]

Okay, here's my $.02. I'm biased, as I love squats, deadlifts, pullups, cleans, overhead presses (call me sick) and the harder the exercise, it's very likely the more bang for your buck. Key is FORM so you don't injure yourself. Let's see if I can take all this and answer your questions.

First, you have to determine your purpose -- WHY do the squats and deadlifts in the first place -- and which variant is the appropriate one for your body, your goals, etc. It may be that someone needs a front squat vs. a back squat in order to teach them how to stay more upright. Or perhaps someone needs to start by squatting onto a chair to learn how to keep the weight back in the heels rather than jutting knees forward of the toes (if they have knee issues.) For others, it may be that teaching deadlifts from the knees is the first step to teaching proper form.

Deadlifts are an AWESOME full-body exercise, for sport or for "average participants" and have great carry-over or transferability to real-life movements (what some dub "functional", though that term is severely overused these days.) In other words, if you're picking up groceries, pulling on a Z-pulley set-up to retrieve a fallen climber, lifting a child, or hoisting your pack, you're basically doing a version of the deadlift. We use it every day. DONE PROPERLY, the gym lift is an excellent training tool for real life.

HOWEVER, as people are pointing out above (I haven't read the latest article referred to) it's VERY difficult to learn form simply by word or still picture alone, or even by video (try learning the snatch, clean, or split jerk by video and you'll know what I mean!)

If more Cascade Climbers readers are interested, my husband Doug and I are available for consultation in the Seattle-area or could even put on a training seminar showing form on some of the more difficult lifts such as these above. We just had a basic training seminar last week at the Mountaineers clubhouse and have had a few at Vertical World as well. If interested, feel free to contact us off-line at trainer@bodyresults.com.

[Courtenay]

I might add, in case anyone wonders where to find trainers who KNOW the lifts, that Doug and I both compete (in the off-season) in local, regional and state powerlifting competitions, in which the squat, deadlift and bench press are the three lifts completed. We're more than happy to help out anyone interested in learning more.

The comment made by Jon about: "Contrary to the article I was taught not to squat, dead lift or power clean with your head back like they say in the article. People believe that putting your head back like that is better for your back. It’s not. It puts unnecessary stress on you neck and promotes over-curvature of the spine. By looking at the ceiling..." Ah, no. I train people to look straight forward, keeping neck in line with the spine (but NOT looking at the floor, as THAT encourages back rounding, the opposite extreme of back arching from looking at the ceiling.) Also partial movements, breaking down the lift into stages, is a good way to teach the lift to new lifters.

[Courtenay]

Bronco asked:<<Why are my upper hamstrings and lower gluts sore after performing deadlift exercise? >>

I'd also want to know, besides frequency, weight used, and other lifts performed, are you doing these as stiff-legged deadlifts (with 10-20 degree knee bend), conventional deadlifts (narrow stance) or sumo deadlifts (wide stance)? The glutes and hams are stressed more in SLDL's than in the other 2. You MAY also have a slight strain in the glute-ham attachment, IF the pain is recurring AND you're doing them as SLDL's with locked out knees (before I knew better, way back when, I did just that. Big no-no.)

[Courtenay]

<< What do you think of the R&I program, Dips and Squat vs. deadlifts?>>

Again, I haven't read the program, but there are pro's and con's to all movements. To make it short and sweet:

SQUATS: probably one of the trickiest moves to learn properly per body type but an awesome exercise for core, lower back, quads or hams (depending on stance), glutes (again, recruitment depends on stance) and body power. The "myth" most people have heard uninformed lifters and even some doctors perpetuate is that squats are :bad for the knees: or :hard on the back.: ONLY IF DONE IMPROPERLY. We squat every day when sitting in a chair or on the toilet, so it's a very natural movement. SOME people with shoulder issues may have difficulty holding the bar behind the neck comfortably, hence tools like the manta ray, safety bar, cambered bar or doing dumbbell, pack or front squats are all different squatting options that can be effective.

DEADLIFTS: Excellent exercise for the muscles listed above, ALSO for the GRIP, fingers, forearms -- again, great for climbers.

DIPS: Depends on the climber. Great for manteling, but some climbers have shoulder conditions (myself included) that get aggravated by doing dips. If they work for you, do them. Pushups can do just as much good and I haven't heard here whether they were included in the article.

[Courtenay]

DCramer asked: << I would also use more reps and less weight for the lateral raise. Additionally I would add forearm pronation and supination excercises. The goal is to have a small (4-5) core group of excercises (eg Bench, Lat Pull, Dips, Squats) augmented by a few other supporting excercises. The core group excercises all have a power orientation. Am I out to lunch Court? >>

Not at all, since lateral raises involve weight far out from the body, I tend to agree with :more reps and light weight: on that one. Ditto pronation and supination, reverse curls vs. regular wrist curls. Key exercises for climbers should be PULLUPS, SQUATS or DEADLIFTS (or one of the variations), some PUSHING exercise (for muscle balance in triceps and chest--such as dips or pushups or bench press) and ROW (for back muscle balance in the horizontal plane). Agreed agreed.

[Bronco]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Courtenay:

....I'd also want to know, besides frequency, weight used, and other lifts performed, are you doing these as stiff-legged deadlifts (with 10-20 degree knee bend), conventional deadlifts (narrow stance) or sumo deadlifts (wide stance)?.....

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Feet are placed slightly wider than shoulder width, not stiff legged, gripping the bar also slightly wider than shoulder, so probably SUMO if I had to guess.

[jon]

So Court you agree with me then? I was first taught head back, but later learned head looking forward by professional strength and conditioning coachs. We broke down every movement and I had to be signed off on my form after my last set. I don't do cleans much anymore but they were by far my favorite lift and I got really good at it thanks to a lot of attention. I was lucky in that for 5 days a week for 8 months I got trained by the best in the business for free. What I learned from those people is invaluable. That said I wouldn't hesitate to pay for a professional trainer to analyze my form.

[Courtenay]

Bronco, I'd say perhaps the sumo deadlift with small plates is more range of motion than you're used to, hence the soreness. You can either 1) lighten the weight, 2) do partial range deadlifts to the knees or shins to not go as far down, or 3) do more than 1 set and put at least 3 days of rest between. Whenever you do an exercise that is new, you can expect some soreness, but if the soreness doesn't go away, or if it's something more severe than "soreness" then try something else and see if it clears up, then resume slowly.

[Courtenay]

Jon wrote: "Then you agree with me ... later learned head looking forward by professional strength and conditioning coaches. We broke down every movement and I had to be signed off on my form after my last set...What I learned from those people is invaluable. That said I wouldn't hesitate to pay for a professional trainer to analyze my form."

I'd agree that looking to the ceiling is not the way to teach the lift, nor is looking at the floor. Both encourage bad form habits from the start. Key is to get the butt low, and start with a tight grip and tight body to maximize the pull (no jerking!) and drive with the legs, keeping arms straight and weight directly below the shoulders. Yes, form is tricky but crucial to any of the more technical lifts, especially those involving potentially a lot of weight.

[texplorer]

In my several years as a trainer I have learned everybody "knows" how to do a lift "correctly." Its like when guys at a bar criticize an NFL coach for calling a certain play. The fact that there is one way to do a lift is somewhat of a myth. Courtney and many others who post here often provide excellent tips and there are some definete No No's that everyone follows. Having said this everyone's body is different and we all have somewhat different goals. For instance, the lower you go in a squat the more strength you'll get but also the more risk of injury. When I was in college the shot and discus throwers would go down so low that their buts touched their heels almost. This made them very strong . ..and made them regulars with the knee surgeon.

I am not saying anyone in here is wrong. In fact I rarely hear anyone in here that is in error. Just remember that you may not be able to do certain lifts or workouts because of your limitations. This is why people like Courtney and other knowledgeable personal trainers can benefit anyone from beginner to expert. My suggestion to you Bronco, go see a knowledgeable professional (they don't work at 24hour fitness) or just lay off the dead lifts for a couple of weeks and drink large quanitities of a certain type of intoxicating drink.

[ 02-27-2002: Message edited by: Courtenay ]

[Figger_Eight]

To clarify what I mean about "looking at the ceiling"...

I actually instruct people to look at a point on the wall that might be a couple of feet above how tall they are standing...which sometimes might be where the wall meets the ceiling...not directly above their heads. Everyone has their own way, it's not as black and white as we're making it sound. Cheers.

[ 02-27-2002: Message edited by: Figger Eight ]

[Bronco]

hey, where did you get those pictures of Mike Adamson's mom and dad?

[nolanr]

Um, pardon me if this sounds stupid, but aren't you supposed to be sore? That's a very subjective term, there's good pain and bad pain w/ strength training. Back when I was a muscle head I WANTED to feel extremely sore the next day or 2 after a workout so that I knew I accomplished something. Normal muscular pain is one thing, shooting or radiating pains or joint pain is another. Just thought I'd bring that little point into the discussion.

I was never a big fan of dead lifts myself, but I liked squats. That was a lift that seperated the men from the boys.

I can't believe after all this time Courtenay let it slip she's married. You've just been stringing all of us pathetic lonely climber guys along all this time.

[Bronco]

Just a little feedback,

I started warming up my hams and gluts by running backwards just a little (thanks kweb) The other change I made was not lowering the bar to the floor, only lowering it to about 10 inches off the deck.

I havent been sore since I made the change, thanks Courtenay and everybody else.