question for climbers

[Moses!]

outdated techniques? You have to be kidding me! A dulfersitz is faster than a rap in low angle terrain. A hip belay is quick on the terrain ascending. It's called improvisation and no one technique is better than the other.

 

exactly Moron,

 

Thanks for clarifying my point. If the Mounties taught improvisation that would be great....but they often teach outdated attitudes which rely on dogma as opposed to sound judgement and self reliance/knowledge. You seem to get the idea that the Mountains are a dynamic environment and approaching them with a flexible attitude and a broad range of skills often serves one best. You should go teach for the Mounties, you could stir things up a bit.

 

 

[selkirk]

outdated techniques? You have to be kidding me! A dulfersitz is faster than a rap in low angle terrain. A hip belay is quick on the terrain ascending. It's called improvisation and no one technique is better than the other.

 

exactly Moron,

 

Thanks for clarifying my point. If the Mounties taught improvisation that would be great....but they often teach outdated attitudes which rely on dogma as opposed to sound judgement and self reliance/knowledge. You seem to get the idea that the Mountains are a dynamic environment and approaching them with a flexible attitude and a broad range of skills often serves one best. You should go teach for the Mounties, you could stir things up a bit.

 

First off you might want to seperate the "Mountaineers" from the basic course students, there are lots and lots and lots of mountaineers floating around doing lots and lots of climbs that aren't under the mountie formal umbrella. Usually you would just call the climbers.

 

As for the Basic course..."We" teach "a" set of skills that won't get you killed. It may not be the most modern. It may not help you climb 5.12 this year, or help you free El Cap. It may not help you climb a Himalayan or Patagonian peak. They will keep you from killing yourself in the near future and give you enough grounding to teach yourself and continue to learn and of course not kill yourself.

 

For a lot of the students getting their first exposure to technical climbing of any sort a single safe way of doing it is about the maximum amount of information that they can absorb. Every time I teach I get lot of "what if" questions, and like teaching in any field I try and provide more detail, understanding, and choices to the students who are capable of absorbing it. And no, they don't teach the dulfersitz anymore (though I've used it on occasion, and shown it to a few people), they don't teach wrapping the rope around your foot or leg to lock the rope off when tying off a fallen climber. They also aren't doing 50 person field trips anymore.

 

Teaching is a balancing act of giving the student enough information without overloading them. The instructors I've worked with always do there best to be flexible with what information is passed on to students, and tuning things to individuals. With the shift from large classes to small instructional groups (6 to 10 people I think) things are becoming progressively more flexible, and the students are also being allowed to leverage previous experience and knowledge to bypass some of the courses.

 

I know mounties who have been up plenty of respectable climbs (Washington Column, Liberty Crack, 20k+ first ascents in China, yada, yada, yada, yada) in good (safe, not hindering other climbers, not scarring the rock) but not groundbreaking style.

 

On the other hand during his first two climbs as a "climb leader" one of my climbing mentors, ended up having his entire basic climbing glacier groups participate in rescues of other parties that were both guided by "professionals". Go figure...

 

So basically STFU noob. If your going to be talking like a "expert" you might want to be aware of current practice. Besides it's been my experience that the most vocal detractors of anything are the most likely to be angry arm-chair enthusiasts.

[Moses!]

Noob at what? Posting on CC.com....well, I'm no old pro like your self. 2436 posts, Waytago. You got me beat.

 

I think you really make my point nicely. I mean, c'mon Selkirk, you've spent pretty much the most of the past several years posting here, mostly in Spray, often at least once a day. I'd say your cred is shot. Get a handle on the reality of your situation.

 

Me, I'm lucky enough to get to climb most of the year. Am I any good? Probably not, but I get by ok. I'm not working too much and I'm seein' the place.

 

Man, It's always the kooks that come out of the woodwork to defend these guys. Yeah, there's a few good Mounties out there, I've climbed with 'em. What was it I said in my first post on this thread about the "worst of the worst"?, Woohoo, I called that one I guess.

 

As far as the quality of the product on offer, I've got no problem telling people to spend their money elsewhere and why. Sorry if that rubs ya the wrong way.

 

Now, I'll let ya get back to yer sprayin.

 

 

[jared_j]

Viewing the arguments of this debate in context of the actors involved is useful for making sense out of the whole thing.

 

(1) There is a history of climbing clubs as a means for some people to learn climbing technique and network with other climbers; this book describes some of that history in case your skeptical of this assertion.

 

(2) These clubs exist due to a large investment of time and energy from some subset of their members. In certain cases, such as the WAC and The Mountaineers, there are tangible assets such as cabins and publishing operations.

 

(3) As organizations with tangible and intangible assets, these clubs tend to operate from a paradigm of promoting safety easily and efficiently to new members in the forms of classes. The skills taught in these classes are legitimate and useful, even if they do not take the students up to the state of the art of practice.

 

(4) Some people are critical thinkers, some are not. Much as some people take a couple of courses in college on a subject and consider themselves experts, some people will walk away from being instructed in a method thinking that it is the method. Some people may also teach as though that is the case. The Mountaineers (or the WAC, or the Bushwhackers, or the Boealps) cannot help it if their students walk away from their courses rigid-minded. I posit that such rigidity has its roots in personality traits and experience of life to date, much less than a recreational course taken as an adult.

 

My point? People who are open-minded and critical thinkers are likely to view instruction (organized in a course, from a guide, from their homies, or even just reading FotH ) as an addition to their toolkit for the mountains rather than gospel. I don't think blame for people being rigid can be laid at the feet of the clubs.

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I think you really make my point nicely. I mean, c'mon Selkirk, you've spent pretty much the most of the past several years posting here, mostly in Spray, often at least once a day. I'd say your cred is shot. Get a handle on the reality of your situation.

 

"Cred" for whom? An anklebiting jackass such as yourself? Who cares. I'll bet Selkirk is a decent climber and a nice guy to boot. I don't think I'd hold the same opinion of you.

 

As for *spray* and your lame criticism - well you're doing it right now bud, irrespective of what forum you are posting under.

 

Man, It's always the kooks that come out of the woodwork to defend these guys.

 

Actually, I'd say it's always the jackasses who come out of the woodworks to flame the Mounties, usually on one of these threads where someone who wants to get into the sport is asking for advice. The other typical opportunity is after an accident.

 

There's more than one way to learn - we've beat that horse to death. One way is through a club and "rigid" instruction. People like you don't seem to be content with that reality, and have to blast it incessantly. That shows quite a bit of arrogance and immaturity.

 

 

 

 

[Moses!]

good points jared. Moses! can get pretty fire and brimstone sometimes. The point is: use your noodle kids.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

(4) Some people are critical thinkers, some are not. Much as some people take a couple of courses in college on a subject and consider themselves experts, some people will walk away from being instructed in a method thinking that it is the method. Some people may also teach as though that is the case. The Mountaineers (or the WAC, or the Bushwhackers, or the Boealps) cannot help it if their students walk away from their courses rigid-minded. I posit that such rigidity has its roots in personality traits and experience of life to date, much less than a recreational course taken as an adult.

 

Good points. One other thing to consider is that a decent portion of the folks who take these classes are just trying out the sport. They take the class, do a few climbs (one season), and then, well, they're done. It was an experience they wanted to try and that's it.

 

[Jason_Martin]

Full disclosure first:

 

I'm a climbing guide.

 

The facts second:

 

Most professional guides don't engage in un-professional activities like hogging routes. Yeah, there are a few bad apples out there, but for the most part guide services will discipline those who give the guiding industry a bad name. For the most part those who give guides a bad name only last a few years. Anyone who encounters a guide behaving in less than a professional manner should contact the guide's employer. Professional guides will always make room for the non-guided public. This is important because it not only helps to preserve the reputation of the company the guide works for, but it allows the guide to model appropriate behavior at the crag's for his or her students.

 

There is nothing wrong with the Mountaineers or other clubs. Volunteer instructors provide you with what you need to know to successfully climb easy to moderate routes. Like anything else, some of the instructors are good and some are not.

 

The biggest difference between a climbing club instructor and a professional climbing guide is the professional part. Climbing is an incredibly dangerous endeavor that has a variety of technical elements which change and evolve every year. Professional guides have engaged in training with such complexity that it could be considered analogous to a bachelor's degree. It is their job to know about these changes in technique. It is their job to be aware of new standards of gear safety or backcountry medicine. And it is their job to know how to teach climbing and mountaineering techniques in an incredibly concise, educated and non-judgemental fashion.

 

In short, it is not only the guide's job, but often his passion to provide you with the necessary skills to do whatever you wish to do in the mountains.

 

Jason

 

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Full disclosure first:

 

I'm a climbing guide.

 

...

 

Hello Jason,

 

What would YOUR recommendations be for someone new who is trying to get into climbing before signing up for a course run by a professional climbing guide? I'm talking about one of those multi-day intro courses which is gonna run over $1000. Is it totally fine to come in as a complete novice, or better for folks to get some experience first (nail down clothing systems, get reasonably fit, get on some steep terrain, hit a climbing gym, do some snowshoeing, etc). I'd kind of recommend the latter for folks - just curious what you would advise.

 

[Jason_Martin]

I would say they should do a 12 or 13 day course with one of the local guide services. They'll learn faster this way...

 

I wish I'd done it. I messed around for a long time before really nailing things down...

 

Jason

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

You wouldn't tell them to at least get fit first? I just looked at the AAI web site, and they have a comment to that effect. A lot of beginners have never carried more than a day pack, yet alone 40-45lbs up 4000+ elevation gain in a day.

 

[Moses!]

Kojakoff or whatever, You've got ZERO cred. You're the king of the fruitcakes, ya nutball. I can't believe you take yourself seriously, but I guess since no one else will. Anyway, I'll just laugh at your post, joker. Thanks for the comic relief.

 

I must have hit a nerve, gotta say though, your an easy target. Boy, my kook detector is working well today, and with so little bait!

 

Jason's WAY better at being diplomatic than Moses!

Don't be a tightwad like the kooks. Get properly trained. Jason hit it on the head, you'll SAVE money in the long run if you do it right early on. Go with a professional. Kojaks dad did!

 

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2008 by Moses!

[StevenSeagal]

 

Is this the pestilence you promised?

[blurpy]

Kojakoff or whatever, You've got ZERO cred. You're the king of the fruitcakes, ya nutball. I can't believe you take yourself seriously, but I guess since no one else will. Anyway, I'll just laugh at your post, joker. Thanks for the comic relief.

 

I must have hit a nerve, gotta say though, your an easy target. Boy, my kook detector is working well today, and with so little bait!

 

Jason's WAY better at being diplomatic than Moses!

Don't be a tightwad like the kooks. Get properly trained. Jason hit it on the head, you'll SAVE money in the long run if you do it right early on. Go with a professional. Kojaks dad did!

 

 

 

 

hey, moise, you gotta quit abusing the fruit of your own loins this way. swampwhore? c'mon, it isn't miriam's fault. you forced her!

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

you morons do realize that this is not Spray?

 

 

[David Trippett]

Edited August 23, 2008 by avitripp

[pc313]

Well I maybe new to CC.com ,but good or bad,out

dated or up to date,Standard methods or off the fly,

all that is learnd and all that gained,gives you edge

to take it to the next level when put in a compermizing

situation,it's at these moment's that you can't pick

up the phone and say hay Bob what the hell would you do?

I believe it's refered to as the pucker facter,that the torch

is pased to the next generation of climbers,and that is the

way it's done become's passe,old school,and beat go's on!

[shaoleung]

Mounties or no mounties... shouldn't really knock it 'til you try it.

 

I climbed for 10 years before taking a few mounties courses. While I often thought about Wilderness/Mountaineering first aid courses, I never took a until then. I knew how to navigate and did plenty of back country stuff, but I "had to" take the navi course and was surprised about how much I learned. Being primarily a rock climber, I had to study avy assessment for snow travel. While I don't use it often, I am definitely safer in avy terrain today. It's one thing to understand how to perform a rescue with 6 or 7 other climbers, but to actually practice it on rock - I don't know anyone that has done that with friends. I had a copy of FoTH, but barely looked at it until the course.

 

I know there are serious issues with the mounties, but they don't "make" or "breed" a certain type of climber. Of all the worthless, dangerous, gumbies I have seen on rock/in the mountains, several have been mounties, but more have been non-mounties.

 

The single most important thing to remember when getting into climbing is that you will always be a student of the mountains. As soon as you think you've mastered everything, you are a danger.

[XXX]

Just a quick question for all the climbers on the forum. In your opinion which would be a better climbing course to take. A basic course through the Mountaineers or a 1 to 2 week course through one of the guide services in washington. I would imagine that many of you got your start using one of these methods and I would appreciate everyones opinon to help me make a decision on which direction to go. Besides the $$ difference between the two which one would you recomend.

Thanks in advance to all that reply

 

the mountaineers get alot of flack on this board, but I am going to go ahead and say the mountaineers. The reason why I would choose mountaineers is because they teach you the basics over a period of time instead of just in a few days. You can learn more, ask questions, and acclimate to the different types of climbing and all the knots and stuff you got to learn.