Hypocrisy

[rob]

Kevin, we're right because we're America.

 

Russia is wrong because they're Russia.

 

WTF? Haven't you been paying attention?

[rob]

Also, Al-Qaeda hates us for our freedoms. That's why they attacked us, forcing us to invade an arabic country that has lots of oil.

 

Russia must hate Georgia for their freedoms, too. Maybe that's why Russia supports Iran, because Russians are freedom-haters!

 

Obviously, Russia supports terror. Therefore, Gerogia should learn from our stragetic genius, and pre-emptively invade Japan.

 

Q.E.D.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Also, Al-Qaeda hates us for our freedoms. That's why they attacked us, forcing us to invade an arabic country that has lots of oil.

 

Russia must hate Georgia for their freedoms, too. Maybe that's why Russia supports Iran, because they're freedom-haters!

 

Obviously, Russia supports terror. Therefore, Gerogia should learn from our stragetic genius, and pre-emptively invade Japan.

 

Q.E.D.

 

There's an oil pipeline through Georgia.

 

I'm just sayin...

 

[TheJiggler]

There's an oil pipeline through Georgia.

 

I'm just sayin...

 

I keep hearing this in the media. If that were the real motive for Russia, wouldn't they have just blown it up and blamed "South Ossetian Seppratists"?

 

(This is serious question BTW. Unlike most people here I'll admit when I'm ignorant!)

 

 

[Bug]

Gee. I wonder if the pipeline goes right through the middle of Georgia.

Here is a guess.

[Phil K]

"Our aim in Iraq was to make it a better place and install a democratic government."

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa there big feller, just a minute. Now let's just for fairness sake stick with the truth here OK. I'm sick of you righties making shit up and spewing it all over until the poor dumfuk 'Muricans start to believe it. No, congress did not authorize King W to go make Iraq a nice happy place, we were told about mushroom clouds, nerve gas, "nucular" programs and all that other make-believe stuff that thinking people knew was not true at the time (too bad congress didn't have the guts to call BS on him then). WE WENT TO WAR TO TAKE AWAY SADDAM'S WMD'S. Period, end of story.

 

And the administration knew it was a lie. Can you say High crimes and misdemeanors? Perhaps you thought Little Bushie's comedy skit with looking for them under his desk was funny? Ha Ha.

 

Thousands dead, billions wasted. At least we have a nice compliant government in place now, willing to give away the country's oil.

 

Bastards.

[Bug]

"Our aim in Iraq was to make it a better place and install a democratic government."

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa there big feller, just a minute. Now let's just for fairness sake stick with the truth here OK. I'm sick of you righties making shit up and spewing it all over until the poor dumfuk 'Muricans start to believe it. No, congress did not authorize King W to go make Iraq a nice happy place, we were told about mushroom clouds, nerve gas, "nucular" programs and all that other make-believe stuff that thinking people knew was not true at the time (too bad congress didn't have the guts to call BS on him then). WE WENT TO WAR TO TAKE AWAY SADDAM'S WMD'S. Period, end of story.

 

And the administration knew it was a lie. Can you say High crimes and misdemeanors? Perhaps you thought Little Bushie's comedy skit with looking for them under his desk was funny? Ha Ha.

 

Thousands dead, billions wasted. At least we have a nice compliant government in place now, willing to give away the country's oil.

 

Bastards.

[rob]

Have they started giving away their oil yet? I need some.

[akhalteke]

"Our aim in Iraq was to make it a better place and install a democratic government."

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa there big feller, just a minute. Now let's just for fairness sake stick with the truth here OK. I'm sick of you righties making shit up and spewing it all over until the poor dumfuk 'Muricans start to believe it. No, congress did not authorize King W to go make Iraq a nice happy place, we were told about mushroom clouds, nerve gas, "nucular" programs and all that other make-believe stuff that thinking people knew was not true at the time (too bad congress didn't have the guts to call BS on him then). WE WENT TO WAR TO TAKE AWAY SADDAM'S WMD'S. Period, end of story.

 

And the administration knew it was a lie. Can you say High crimes and misdemeanors? Perhaps you thought Little Bushie's comedy skit with looking for them under his desk was funny? Ha Ha.

 

Thousands dead, billions wasted. At least we have a nice compliant government in place now, willing to give away the country's oil.

 

Bastards.

 

Since you wrote so eloquently and respectfully, I'll respond. Did we have any intentions of blowing the shit out of the capitol and then cutting and running (excluding hard-line democrats of course)? Reconstruction was always on the minds of those constructing the war-plan (though not as much as it should have been).

 

Russia on the other-hand has been blatant in its apathy of the aftermth and calling it the price for fucking with Mazza Razzia.

[Phil K]

Wrong again. War plan? We were going to be showered with flower petals, stay for a few weeks, and then say bye-bye. There was virtually NO planning for the aftermath. And trying to pin the failure on "hard line Democrats"; WTF? The gang of four (Georgie, Dick, Condi, and Rummie) had such a hard on to get their war that they slapped down anyone like Shinseki who tried to talk any sense into their thick heads. And they thought it was going to be so simple. Remember "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended" -how many dead since then, eh? Oh, they did plan ahead when it mattered to them, like guarding the Oil Ministry, but the National Historic Museum, or how about 350 TONS of high explosives that we just let get stolen? Couldn't have possibly seen that happening with our satelite imaging equipment, could we?

 

FAIL!

[TheJiggler]

[quote=akhalteke Reconstruction was always on the minds of those constructing the war-plan (though not as much as it should have been).

Why would we have planned for reconstruction when:

"my belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators. . . . I think it will go relatively quickly, . . . (in) weeks rather than months" - Dick Cheney

"It is unknowable how long that conflict will last. It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months." - Rumsfeld

"The Iraqi people understand what this crisis is about. Like the people of France in the 1940s, they view us as their hoped-for liberator." - Wolfowitz

 

It was clear from the beginning that we wouldn't have to do any re-construction?

 

 

[akhalteke]

Wrong again. War plan? We were going to be showered with flower petals, stay for a few weeks, and then say bye-bye. There was virtually NO planning for the aftermath. And trying to pin the failure on "hard line Democrats"; WTF? The gang of four (Georgie, Dick, Condi, and Rummie) had such a hard on to get their war that they slapped down anyone like Shinseki who tried to talk any sense into their thick heads. And they thought it was going to be so simple. Remember "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended" -how many dead since then, eh? Oh, they did plan ahead when it mattered to them, like guarding the Oil Ministry, but the National Historic Museum, or how about 350 TONS of high explosives that we just let get stolen? Couldn't have possibly seen that happening with our satelite imaging equipment, could we?

 

FAIL!

 

 

I didn't pin the failure on hard-line democrats; but rather stated that they would have rathered we leave like we did the first time we went there; allowing the Kurds to be anihilated.

 

There was an accepted idea that there would be a reconstruction. It was far too vague but you are missing the major point. We had committed to (at the very least, even you cannot argue against this) the fact that there would be a reconstruction.

 

Russia unabashedly stated that the destruction was the fault and at the expense of the Georgians. This is a major difference. To walz in and destroy a town and then occupy and continue to destroy under the premise of a cease-fire and then pull-out and say "oh well," is precisely the opposite of what we did in Iraq.

 

If you wanted us to do this in Iraq, we would have been done in 24 hours. The country would have been destroyed and we would have "won the war" in a few bloody hours. Instead of blowing everything and anything in the country up, we have decided to be more surgical and this takes more time and is more dangerous.

 

We must assume this danger as we are not the animals that would destroy civilian structures to strenghten our point of military superiority.

[akhalteke]

[quote=akhalteke Reconstruction was always on the minds of those constructing the war-plan (though not as much as it should have been).

Why would we have planned for reconstruction when:

"my belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators. . . . I think it will go relatively quickly, . . . (in) weeks rather than months" - Dick Cheney

"It is unknowable how long that conflict will last. It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months." - Rumsfeld

"The Iraqi people understand what this crisis is about. Like the people of France in the 1940s, they view us as their hoped-for liberator." - Wolfowitz

 

It was clear from the beginning that we wouldn't have to do any re-construction?

 

 

Give me a break. This is obvious pre-war propaganda meant to sell the Americans on a war that was not popular. This shows nothing about the true intentions of the leaaders and those in the upper echelons of command.

 

Please think a little.

[TheJiggler]

I See.

 

So the plan was to spend billions (or maybe trillions) of dollars, kill thousnads of US troops, sink the US economy, destroy the repulican party, evaporate all the goodwill towards the US after 9/11 and give Russia license to invade other countires. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!

[akhalteke]

I See.

 

So the plan was to spend billions (or maybe trillions) of dollars, kill thousnads of US troops, sink the US economy, destroy the repulican party, evaporate all the goodwill towards the US after 9/11 and give Russia license to invade other countires. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!

 

Come back with something that requires actual critical thought and I might continue with this discourse. The world is not black and white. The only absolute is that war sucks ass, but is at times necessary.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

YES BUT WHAT ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING??? HUH???!!

[rob]

I heard that global warming was caused by Saddam, which is why we invaded Iraq.

[TheJiggler]

I See.

 

So the plan was to spend billions (or maybe trillions) of dollars, kill thousnads of US troops, sink the US economy, destroy the repulican party, evaporate all the goodwill towards the US after 9/11 and give Russia license to invade other countires. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!

 

Come back with something that requires actual critical thought and I might continue with this discourse. The world is not black and white. The only absolute is that war sucks ass, but is at times necessary.

 

Fair enough. From my perspective everything points to an incompetent cabal of politicians (not generals), that were so arrogant and sure of themselves that they couldn't conceive of anything but a quick defeat and an early exit. They brought the term "regime change" into the lexicon as if it was something akin to an oil change (no pun intended). Drive in, 15 minutes later the regime is changed and you drive out. Yer good for a few months until the next unfortunate dictator goes after your father.

 

I see absolutely no evidence of planning? Literally from day one that US tanks rolled on the streets of Baghdad, we failed to act on any sort of rational plan? Are you really trying to tell me that the best minds of the current administration undertook the requisite research and decided it would be a good idea to disband they Iraqi army and let them keep their weapons?

 

[billcoe]

I VOTE,AND IT WASN'T FOR KING GORGE,AND TO ALL THAT DID,TAKE

SOME RESPONSIBILTY FOR THE SHIT WERE IN,FUCKING ASSHOLE'S!!!

BAD VOTER'S BAD BAD BAD VOTER'S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Give us a clue what language we're workin' with here.

[rob]

I VOTE,AND IT WASN'T FOR KING GORGE,AND TO ALL THAT DID,TAKE

SOME RESPONSIBILTY FOR THE SHIT WERE IN,FUCKING ASSHOLE'S!!!

BAD VOTER'S BAD BAD BAD VOTER'S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Give us a clue what language we're workin' with here.

 

Not the king's english, that's for sure

[akhalteke]

I See.

 

So the plan was to spend billions (or maybe trillions) of dollars, kill thousnads of US troops, sink the US economy, destroy the repulican party, evaporate all the goodwill towards the US after 9/11 and give Russia license to invade other countires. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!

 

Come back with something that requires actual critical thought and I might continue with this discourse. The world is not black and white. The only absolute is that war sucks ass, but is at times necessary.

 

Fair enough. From my perspective everything points to an incompetent cabal of politicians (not generals), that were so arrogant and sure of themselves that they couldn't conceive of anything but a quick defeat and an early exit. They brought the term "regime change" into the lexicon as if it was something akin to an oil change (no pun intended). Drive in, 15 minutes later the regime is changed and you drive out. Yer good for a few months until the next unfortunate dictator goes after your father.

 

I see absolutely no evidence of planning? Literally from day one that US tanks rolled on the streets of Baghdad, we failed to act on any sort of rational plan? Are you really trying to tell me that the best minds of the current administration undertook the requisite research and decided it would be a good idea to disband they Iraqi army and let them keep their weapons?

 

Here's how I see it. Those pushing for war saw a limited window to execute and took best case scenarios as gospel. They understood the possibility of an insurgency taking a stronghold, but their desire to eradicate the regime overtook their good sense (whatever there was). They (rightfully) estimated the war to last weeks at most (and that is what happened). They underestimated the insurgency and the amount of fogeign fighters that would take part in the fighting.

 

They did have noble goals for reconstruction (though obviosuly they had an agenda) and are trying to adhere to them. Problem is, they forgot one of the primary tennants of warfighting. Always expect the unexpected. You must prognosticate every forseeable move the enemy can make. Mr. Tzu said that a long time ago.

 

Problem is, chickenhawks are making the plans and timelines to go to war and do not have the experience and or mindset to think in these chess-like and detail-laden processes. The military may seem like brain-washing to some because they have methods to ensure that every contingency is looked after and every piece of equipment is acounted for.

 

This mentality is a necessity when the stakes of your livlihood are life and death. Those that sit on velvet seat cushions for a living just dont have the ability to think like this.

 

Despite the failure in execution (and mostly in planning) the goals and the plan were at least given consideration as to the well being (short term and long term) to the Iqaqi people. This is something that cannot be said about the Russians. In fact, it must be emphatically stated that the converse is true.

[billcoe]

Our aim in Iraq was to make it a better place and install a democratic government.

 

I think that this has theater wide implications for even those who are our "friends" and not democracies. Anyone who has tracked the US imports of oil from Saudi Arabia have seen them drop off the list of top oil imports to us. Our government sees that ticking time bomb which represents a huge economic force to our and the worlds economy and is looking ahead a few years.

 

From my perspective, I thought that the early prosecution of the war, as in how we started and got into it, was one of the more horrendous things I've seen my gov't do. I carry some bitterness of the initiation of that whole thing. That you, my brothers, overwhelmingly and totally supported it then after the early success after running in there like Leroy Jenkins all akimbo, seemed crazy to me then and now (yet understandable). It shows weak minds and weak will. That the stakes are huge is undeniable, and I would hope that once we've collectively jumped off the cliff like we have, then stay tucked up till ya hit the water or your nuts will go splat. Which translates loosely to stop whining about Iraq and STFU. We MUST successfully pull this off. It's huge and we already spent the money and the lives. Somehow many of you feel that whining and complaining on public boards translates to something like intellectual discourse. It isn't and it doesn't. It marks you as pussies. It shows weak minds and weak will. So STFU and sack up - don't fuck this up for the rest of us.

 

Thats my take. And here we all sit in a ricketty old wooden tub heading towards the massive and thundering waterfalls, without any energy policy of record still.....wondering if conservation will become the watchword only after we finally and fatally pitch collectively, with our kids and all we hold near and dear inside our leaky tub, off into the abyss....

 

Regards to all, here's to hoping that Obama selects Joeseph Biden as VP (who's not perfect at all, just damn good), if he does, I'll be 80-90 percent on board the Obama change train instead of outside looking in like now.

 

 

Edited to add a few more words:

Edited August 18, 2008 by billcoe

[akhalteke]

I VOTE,AND IT WASN'T FOR KING GORGE,AND TO ALL THAT DID,TAKE

SOME RESPONSIBILTY FOR THE SHIT WERE IN,FUCKING ASSHOLE'S!!!

BAD VOTER'S BAD BAD BAD VOTER'S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Give us a clue what language we're workin' with here.

 

Not the king's english, that's for sure

 

More like the Prince's English. Harry to be exact... pre-military times 'on the piss'.

[akhalteke]

Our aim in Iraq was to make it a better place and install a democratic government.

 

I think that this has theater wide implications for even those who are our "friends" and not democracies. Anyone who has tracked the US imports of oil from Saudi Arabia have seen them drop off the list of top oil imports to us. Our government sees that ticking time bomb which represents a huge economic power to our and the worlds economy and is looking ahead a few years.

 

From my perspective, I thought that the early prosecution of the war, as in how we started and got into it, was one of the more horrendous things I've seen my gov't do. I carry some bitterness of the initiation of that whole thing. That you, my brothers, overwhelmingly and totally supported it then after the early success after running in there like Leroy Jenkins all akimbo, seemed crazy to me then and now (yet understandable). It shows weak minds and weak will. That the stakes are huge is undeniable, and I would hope that once we've collectively jumped off the cliff like we have, then stay tucked up till ya hit the water or your nuts will go splat. Which translates loosely to stop whining about Iraq and STFU. We MUST successfully pull this off. It's huge and we already spent the money and the lives. Somehow many of you feel that whining and complaining on public boards translates to something like intellectual discourse. It isn't and it doesn't. It marks you as pussies. It shows weak minds and weak will. So STFU and sack up - don't fuck this up for the rest of us.

 

Thats my take.

 

regards to all

 

 

 

True. If we fuck this up, bad times to follow. Better not let political differences fuck up an already fucked up situation.

[billcoe]

Never met you bro, but here's to a future pint or 2, I'll buy the first round.

 

Thank you for the steady nerves and calm words. When you're not yelling at folks you seem like a good sort.