Other People's Project - Ethics

[rob]

You are wrong.

There are "still" a handfull of climbers who support ground-up ethics at Frenchmens Coulee/vantage and who have practiced such ethics.

Choss or not, cracks have been pioneered this way at FC for many generations. Sport climbs on the other hand have (to my knowledge) never been done this way at FC.

The security of a crack is way better versus hangin on some crap-rock face climb yarding loose rock off while attemping to drill in the superdense basalt.

 

Maybe it's just me, but rap-bolting has always felt like cheating. Its easy for me to say, perhaps, since I'm not a "crag developer" and have never "put up a route". Nevertheless, I'm a big believer in ground-up "ethics."

 

Rapping down, setting pro (trad or bolts) and then giving it a go just seems like cheating. This type of climbing seems kind of unnatural to me, and I view it similar to top-roping a climb -- in both situations the climb wasn't really done properly. A bolt placed on rap just permanently marks the climb as something that couldn't have ever been done "for real."

 

Not that there's anything wrong with this, but like top-roping, I don't fool myself that I've "done the climb."

 

I'm fairly new in my climbing career, so I guess I'm just being too idealistic or naive?

 

Pro should be placed on lead, bolts or otherwise. Or else you're using unnatural means to mitigate the challenges or dangers of the climb.

 

Again, easy for me to say, right? Cause I'm so hardcore.

 

I have spoken.

[sobo]

I like the way you think.

[hafilax]

I'm with rob as well.

[Rad]

Yes, Rob, easy for you to say.

 

As you may know, some highly respected climbs are hard headpoints in the UK. These routes are typically toproped ad infinitum prior to R/X lead attempts. Is that cheating too?

 

Many threads have dealt with FA style before. It often boils down to whether the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one. In other words, is the style and experience of the first ascent (the one) more important than the final product that subsequent climbers (the many) will experience?

 

In one example, bolts placed from hooks may not be in places that make sense for free climbing (e.g. near a clipping stance and protecting the right part of the climb). Cleaning loose rock off a route from hook placements sounds really scary! Besides, hooks are aid, so perhaps you should drill bolts by hand from stances.

 

It's a fine goal to make a first ascent onsight ground up while placing all protection from stances, with an eye to developing a classic route worth repeating. I agree with you that ground-up is better provided it does not compromise the resulting product. We look forward to seeing your FA TRs.

[kevino]

You are wrong.

There are "still" a handfull of climbers who support ground-up ethics at Frenchmens Coulee/vantage and who have practiced such ethics.

Choss or not, cracks have been pioneered this way at FC for many generations. Sport climbs on the other hand have (to my knowledge) never been done this way at FC.

The security of a crack is way better versus hangin on some crap-rock face climb yarding loose rock off while attemping to drill in the superdense basalt.

 

I would hope that I could join that group when I try to climb some new cracks there.

 

Rob, I agree with you, I haven't really "climbed" the climb until I've led it - regardless of sport or trad.

 

Anyway, interesting opinions.

 

I have another question, what do people think of anchors/bolts on top of a trad vs walk off? Walk off is kind of weird...Obviously there is both at both tieton and vantage.

[Bug]

God was there first.

God gets all the FA's and all the FFA's.

The rest of you are wankers.

 

Baaaaaaack in Montana, we just went out and did lines and told people about them. Sometimes my name appeared in books, sometimes it didn't. The last book to come out for Blodgett has three lines I was in on the FFA's on and it doesn't mention anybody.

If "my project" got stolen, I moved on to the next one. Of course, I might have been more inclined to steal theirs if the opportunity arrose.

But the sniff test becomes more important as there are more rats in the cage. We all smell bad if you ask me. We are pursuing a sport that requires energy and pollution to manufacture the gear and there are very few redeeming social values. What there are could probably be more easily reached by coaching a soccer team. So it boils down to the fact that we are a spoiled bunch of selfish rich kids with habits we should be thankful to participate in. Yet we still stab each other in the back.

Cheers!

 

[Rad]

Perhaps I misunderstood and Rob was talking about redpointing (placing all gear/draws on lead) versus pinkpointing (clipping pre-placed draws/gear).

 

We can probably all agree that leading onsight > flashing > redpointing > pinkpointing > hangdogging on lead > TRing > couch surfing > spraying on CC.

[rob]

We look forward to seeing your FA TRs.

 

Thanks! Me too.

 

(or are you being snide? I've met you, you seem like a nice guy, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.)

[sobo]

I have another question, what do people think of anchors/bolts on top of a trad vs walk off? Walk off is kind of weird...Obviously there is both at both tieton and vantage.

Depends. Rap bolts could save valuable cragging time as opposed to walking off each route. Would you want to walk off each climb you do at Royal Columns, or would you rather rap from one of the myriad stations and get to your next climb that much sooner?

 

Also, the scree is really loose at the top of routes at RC and Vantage, and traipsing across the top of the columns poses a potential danger to those below you on other routes as you cross above them. Again, rapping would be preferable in those instances.

[Rad]

So it boils down to the fact that we are a spoiled bunch of selfish rich kids with habits we should be thankful to participate in. Yet we still stab each other in the back.

Cheers!

 

[sobo]

Perhaps I misunderstood and Rob was talking about redpointing (placing all gear/draws on lead) versus pinkpointing (clipping pre-placed draws/gear).

 

We can probably all agree that leading onsight > flashing > redpointing > pinkpointing > hangdogging on lead > TRing > couch surfing > spraying on CC.

This is some jargon of the sport that has eluded me in the past. What is the difference between an onsight and a flash? My understanding is that an onsight means to lead a route clean (no stalls or falls) without any prior beta of the climb. Walk up and do it. Is not a flash the same thing? I'm just old skewl enough to not know these things, not that I ever cared...

[kevino]

I think flash means you climbed it on your first try, but you could have recieved information about the climb.

[sobo]

It's still "no stalls, no falls" then, yes?

[Rad]

Flash is what I did on the Sword after seeing pics from every possible angle and reading every TR I could find. Certainly not an onsight.

 

It's still "no stalls, no falls" then, yes?

 

Right.

Edited May 29, 2008 by Rad

[kevino]

I've never understood pink-pointing a trad climb, doesn't that seem contradictory to anyone else? Sure it could be a weird spot to place gear - but isn't that the essence of trad climbing? I only say this because earlier you referred to pink-pointing as cliping preplaced draws/gear.

[Rad]

Pinkpointing trad routes, or even sport routes, seems pretty silly to me too, but if that makes people happy who cares? I might imagine there are routes truly at one's limit that one can pinkpoint but not redpoint.

[sobo]

I've been climbing for 25 years now and I never even knew what pinkpointing was exactly until Rad explained it above. Shows how little I know...

[kevino]

Yeah geez Paul thats what you get for living in the palm springs of washington.

[sobo]

I don't live in TPSoWA anymo'. Done moved up a bit and now live in the Oklahoma Dustbowl of WA. But I started this game on the east coast.

[kevino]

yeah i know you don't live their anymore. that just sounds cooler to say than tri-cities.

 

 

[sobo]

That's why we call it the Dry Shitties!

 

Or the Dry Titties!

 

Or the Tri-Titties! ewwwwwwwwwww...

[Rad]

Sobo,

I once had a guide, perhaps now in the basement, to the Owens River Gorge that defined pinkpointing, redpointing, brownpointing, and at least two other colors. One may have corresponded to dogging on lead (hanging/falling and then continuing to the top). Not sure.

You're not missing much by ignoring all of these.

R

[sexual_chocolate]

 

btw, i don't think there is any sort of "ground up" ethic at vantage, beyond what the late bill robins tried to endorse.

 

You are wrong.

There are "still" a handfull of climbers who support ground-up ethics at Frenchmens Coulee/vantage and who have practiced such ethics.

Choss or not, cracks have been pioneered this way at FC for many generations. Sport climbs on the other hand have (to my knowledge) never been done this way at FC.

The security of a crack is way better versus hangin on some crap-rock face climb yarding loose rock off while attemping to drill in the superdense basalt.

 

i guess what i meant is that there isn't an established ground-up ethic that is in any way "enforced" or even the prevalent viewpoint at vantage. simply because a handful of climbers support a certain ethic doesn't mean that ethic prevails. (btw, i personally don't give a damn whether some route was rapped and cleaned and rehearsed and then led, or gee, ground-up! it's all too insane if you really think about it.)

 

as far as sport routes go, the idea of establishing some of these because of an arbitrary ground-up ethic seems a bit silly, and would lead to a comedic scene in the caves (come on, reach further! yes! you got that one two and a half feet from the last one!).

 

whatever. another discussion about something that will not affect my actions, or anyone else's, in the least.

[sobo]

Sobo,

I once had a guide, perhaps now in the basement, to the Owens River Gorge that defined pinkpointing, redpointing, brownpointing, and at least two other colors...

I can only imagine what that one was about...

"Holy crap, man! I coulda shat myself when I was way sketched out 30 feet above my last pro. I was looking at a grounder fer sure. I almost brownpointed my shorts!"

[mattp]

Rob, different rocks and different types of rock are different.

 

I understand your notion that rap bolting is cheating, but I would have to say that a strict adherence to ground-up first ascents often produces lousy crag climbs. In Darrington, almost all of the best routes there have been established through some combination of ground up and rappel bolting or exclusively rappel bolting. All of what I consider to have been the worst eyesores there, including several that are peppered with bolts and that virtually nobody climbs or has any affinity for, were established purely from the ground up.