madeinmontana Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 No...I have no reason to think that you are not a great climber and make good decisions. No one is invincible. Something like rockfall does not discriminate between the best and the worst. I wasn't implying that your skills were going to get you in trouble and im sorry if I wasn't more clear on that. Calling people in a paticular organization morons is personal. Sorry, I can't find any other way to read that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 Well...FWIW i can't stand organized climbing...it goes against everything that attracted me to climbing in the first place...Its great that other people get something from it, but it isn't for me. On a personal note, i have been "pushed" out of areas before when i've had a couple of young kids with me. Unfortunately, young kid climbing (read: easy approach, low angle, readily topropeable) is exactly what these types of groups need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madeinmontana Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 short answer...NO, they aren't really less likely to need professional help anymore than others as a group... I agree with that. If its bad we would all need help no matter where we learned our stuff. Why such an issue with those who want to break into the sport without the initial resource of a friend to informally show you these things? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 How many mounties/boealps/et al. successful difficult rescues have been carried out over the years where these essential skills have actually been put to the test in a non-trivial manner? Are these trained groups really any less likely to need the help of SAR professionals than their self taught or informally taught cohort. Good question. I don't know. I'd be willing to guess however that whatever "rescue" RuMR needed his partner would be able to handle and vice versa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
counterfeitfake Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 How many mounties/boealps/et al. successful difficult rescues have been carried out over the years where these essential skills have actually been put to the test in a non-trivial manner? Are these trained groups really any less likely to need the help of SAR professionals than their self taught or informally taught cohort. I don't know, but I participated in the rescue of a climber with a broken ankle off the seracs at Mount Baker without SAR or Mountain Rescue assistance. What are you really getting at? Self-rescue is extremely difficult in any circumstance, even if you have been exposed to the concepts. Even if you are an expert. I think it's virtually impossible for a small group to rescue anyone over miles of terrain, you always need a lot of people for that. It's the things you can do immediately when an accident occurs in the backcountry, before emergency responders have a chance to show up, that are more likely to make the difference between life and death. I am convinced that a graduate of one of the intermediate courses has a leg up on most self-taught climbers, merely by having spent at least one weekend working on self-rescue techniques. How many of you who have never taken a class have practiced any self-rescue? Maybe I am mistaken but I feel like this is something that is usually overlooked. Basic class graduates... yeah, I don't think they have much knowledge by which to execute a rescue. But this is no worse than a group of friends who picked up FOTH and started figuring it out for themselves. I think this is really just a recurring argument that happens whenever someone mentions a climbing club: anyone who is self-taught or whose buddy was a climber and brought him into the sport wants to chime in and diss the big group. The way you learned might have advantages but it isn't an option for a lot of people. Purely by the numbers it doesn't work out. In a class like this, an 8-student team can learn a lot from 3-4 instructors and come out of the class fairly knowledgable, fairly safe, and ready to continue their climbing education in whatever way they see fit (or quit, which a lot of them do). It works pretty well. There are different ways of doing things than what you have done. I was impressed when I saw Pope in the newbies forum volunteering to help out a beginner. That is constructive; most of this thread is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
counterfeitfake Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 Well...FWIW i can't stand organized climbing...it goes against everything that attracted me to climbing in the first place...Its great that other people get something from it, but it isn't for me. On a personal note, i have been "pushed" out of areas before when i've had a couple of young kids with me. Unfortunately, young kid climbing (read: easy approach, low angle, readily topropeable) is exactly what these types of groups need. I think now you are saying something reasonable. I'd be pissed too if I was at a crag and it got swarmed. The group I'm in gets up really early so we can get there first, and we schedule our rock outings for late winter/early spring to try not to be in the way. Even so, if my group was at a crag and you showed up, we'd probably be able to work something out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 How many mounties/boealps/et al. successful difficult rescues have been carried out over the years where these essential skills have actually been put to the test in a non-trivial manner? Are these trained groups really any less likely to need the help of SAR professionals than their self taught or informally taught cohort. I don't know, but I participated in the rescue of a climber with a broken ankle off the seracs at Mount Baker without SAR or Mountain Rescue assistance. What are you really getting at? Self-rescue is extremely difficult in any circumstance, even if you have been exposed to the concepts. Even if you are an expert. I think it's virtually impossible for a small group to rescue anyone over miles of terrain, you always need a lot of people for that. It's the things you can do immediately when an accident occurs in the backcountry, before emergency responders have a chance to show up, that are more likely to make the difference between life and death. I am convinced that a graduate of one of the intermediate courses has a leg up on most self-taught climbers, merely by having spent at least one weekend working on self-rescue techniques. How many of you who have never taken a class have practiced any self-rescue? Maybe I am mistaken but I feel like this is something that is usually overlooked. Basic class graduates... yeah, I don't think they have much knowledge by which to execute a rescue. But this is no worse than a group of friends who picked up FOTH and started figuring it out for themselves. I think this is really just a recurring argument that happens whenever someone mentions a climbing club: anyone who is self-taught or whose buddy was a climber and brought him into the sport wants to chime in and diss the big group. The way you learned might have advantages but it isn't an option for a lot of people. Purely by the numbers it doesn't work out. In a class like this, an 8-student team can learn a lot from 3-4 instructors and come out of the class fairly knowledgable, fairly safe, and ready to continue their climbing education in whatever way they see fit (or quit, which a lot of them do). It works pretty well. There are different ways of doing things than what you have done. I was impressed when I saw Pope in the newbies forum volunteering to help out a beginner. That is constructive; most of this thread is not. i dissed the "group" for calling dibs on a cliff in advance...basically saying "Look, we are going to X, so YOU go somewhere else"...how can you interepret fender's post anyway else???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 Well...FWIW i can't stand organized climbing...it goes against everything that attracted me to climbing in the first place...Its great that other people get something from it, but it isn't for me. On a personal note, i have been "pushed" out of areas before when i've had a couple of young kids with me. Unfortunately, young kid climbing (read: easy approach, low angle, readily topropeable) is exactly what these types of groups need. I think now you are saying something reasonable. I'd be pissed too if I was at a crag and it got swarmed. The group I'm in gets up really early so we can get there first, and we schedule our rock outings for late winter/early spring to try not to be in the way. Even so, if my group was at a crag and you showed up, we'd probably be able to work something out. maybe, maybe not...you, as the trip organizer, will naturally owe serious due to people who signed up under your org...obviously, you will support your group first, and i will be muttering "assholes" under my breath and will vent it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 and i don't have an elitist attitude... tomtom, you're a fuckin' tool...but that owl pic ROCKS...i've used it a ton at work in emails... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 maybe, maybe not...you, as the trip organizer, will naturally owe serious due to people who signed up under your org...obviously, you will support your group first, and i will be muttering "assholes" under my breath and will vent it... RuMR, will it make you a lot happier if guys like Fenderfour didn't warn you? They are going to be there one way or another and they are going to get there early so they are there first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 listen, i said thanks, didn't i? Still doesn't mean i have to like it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenderfour Posted April 18, 2008 Author Share Posted April 18, 2008 You guys are getting all worked up for no reason. Only the Boealps or the Mountaineers would be in the Icicle doing anything this weekend. I've already said that this is a warning, not "dibs". If Rumr wants to take it another way, he can eat a dick. He won't be out there trying to climb anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 eat a dick?? hey, fuck you too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenderfour Posted April 18, 2008 Author Share Posted April 18, 2008 We might also want to pitch in to buy Rumr a new life. He has been camped out on this thing all day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 i'm stuck at work...just shoot me...its cheaper than buying me a new life... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenderfour Posted April 18, 2008 Author Share Posted April 18, 2008 10:35 pm and you are at work? All of your dick-headedness is forgiven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 my life/world has revolved around my fucking cube...this f-ing blows... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenderfour Posted April 18, 2008 Author Share Posted April 18, 2008 As a recap, I went to two different bars, had a few terrific beers, and now I'm going to sleep for a while. Have fun at work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 my life/world has revolved around my fucking cube...this f-ing blows... well don't feel too bad. the weather this w/e is gonna suck ass, so the only ones suffering will be those in the icicle, not in the cubicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 As a recap, I went to two different bars, had a few terrific beers, and now I'm going to sleep for a while. Have fun at work. GRRRR! I HOPE YOU GET RAINED ON... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 I was impressed when I saw Pope in the newbies forum volunteering to help out a beginner. That is constructive; most of this thread is not. Pope was only trying to save a brother from succumbing to the cheap allure of sport-climbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
counterfeitfake Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 I was impressed when I saw Pope in the newbies forum volunteering to help out a beginner. That is constructive; most of this thread is not. Pope was only trying to save a brother from succumbing to the cheap allure of sport-climbing. Good, he's putting his money where his mouth is. A lot better than most of the sprayers in here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 1. how many times has this exact same image been posted? Answer: not enough. It's a classic! The mystery woman in black, for example....she deserves her own fan club. Who is she? Why does she consistently dress in black and what do the green gloves signify? And the sunglasses...what secrets is she hiding??? And why isn't she wearing gaitors like some of her apprentices? And there are other photos....yes there are....in which our curly-haired friend holds a clipboard! And then there's that lovable bouldering crew, givin' it a try with a li'l help from their friends! I like the whole set-up...there's the gaitor-guy climbing, one guy watching, another staring at the ground and another staring straight ahead and the guy in the back is flinching. (I would too!) Everyone of them's got a story to tell and I'd especially like to take out that white-T-shirt guy for a beer. It must have been quite a day! Work it! Just keepin' it real! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 some guns n' roses might be in order: DEAD HORSE Sick of this life Not that you'd care I'm not the only one with whom these feelings I share Nobody understands, quite why we're here We're searchin' for answers That never appear But maybe if I looked real hard I'd I'd see your tryin' too To understand this life, That we're all goin' through (Then when she said she was gonna like wreck my car...I didn't know what to do) Sometimes I feel like I'm beatin' a dead horse An I don't know why you'd be bringin' me down I'd like to think that our love's worth a tad more It may sound funny but you'd think by now I'd be smilin' I guess some things never change Never change I met an old cowboy I saw the look in his eyes Somethin' tells me he's been here before 'Cause experience makes you wise I was only a small child When the thought first came to me That I'm a son of a gun and the gun of a son That brought back the devil in me Sometimes I feel like I'm beatin' a dead horse An I don't know why you'd be bringin' me down I'd like to think that our love's worth a tad more It may sound funny but you'd think by now I'd be smilin' I guess some things never change Never change I ain't quite what you'd call an old soul Still wet behind the ears I been around this track a couple o' times But now the dust is startin' to clear Oh yeah!!! Sometimes I feel like I'm beatin' a dead horse An I don't know why you'd be bringin' me down I'd like to think that our love's worth a tad more It may sound funny but you'd think by now I'd be smilin' Ooh yeah, I'd be smilin' No way I'd be smilin' Ooh smilin' Sick of this life Not that you'd care I'm not the only one With whom these feelings I share Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
counterfeitfake Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 Man! He FINALLY makes my ignore list! I didn't think it was going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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