Islam: fear trumps freedom

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

 

Seems accurate in the Euro context.

 

Liberalizing their labor markets and reforming their welfare policies so that immigrants have the incentive and the means to participate more extensively in society, instead of being locked out of the job market and warehoused in housing projects is where I'd start.

 

I think that workforce participation is a much more potent driver of social harmony and integration than most people realize - and is often at least as potent in shaping the attitudes of native citizens as it is immigrants.

 

i wonder why is it that immigrants from former soviet block move to england ireland, france or other countries and they don't lock themselves in a ghettos? and why is it that they can find jobs and immigrants from north africa can't?

 

Ditto for immigrants from southeast Asia and India. And it's not like they give up their culture and language (and religion) either.

 

 

[JayB]

 

 

Seems accurate in the Euro context.

 

Liberalizing their labor markets and reforming their welfare policies so that immigrants have the incentive and the means to participate more extensively in society, instead of being locked out of the job market and warehoused in housing projects is where I'd start.

 

I think that workforce participation is a much more potent driver of social harmony and integration than most people realize - and is often at least as potent in shaping the attitudes of native citizens as it is immigrants.

 

i wonder why is it that immigrants from former soviet block move to england ireland, france or other countries and they don't lock themselves in a ghettos? and why is it that they can find jobs and immigrants from north africa can't?

 

I'd venture a guess that at least part of it has to do with the fact that they're likely to have better education and training, but I suspect that the values and aspirations that they bring with them - none of which (except perhaps the strong work ethic )conflict with the culture that they've moved into - play a much larger role.

 

Why do you think the disparity exists?

[Hugh Conway]

 

 

Seems accurate in the Euro context.

 

Liberalizing their labor markets and reforming their welfare policies so that immigrants have the incentive and the means to participate more extensively in society, instead of being locked out of the job market and warehoused in housing projects is where I'd start.

 

I think that workforce participation is a much more potent driver of social harmony and integration than most people realize - and is often at least as potent in shaping the attitudes of native citizens as it is immigrants.

 

i wonder why is it that immigrants from former soviet block move to england ireland, france or other countries and they don't lock themselves in a ghettos? and why is it that they can find jobs and immigrants from north africa can't?

 

Ditto for immigrants from southeast Asia and India. And it's not like they give up their culture and language (and religion) either.

 

eh? They have their ghettos, the Windians have their ghettos, just like the turks and pakistanis have their ghettos. Immigrants naturally cluster.

[glassgowkiss]

 

 

Seems accurate in the Euro context.

 

Liberalizing their labor markets and reforming their welfare policies so that immigrants have the incentive and the means to participate more extensively in society, instead of being locked out of the job market and warehoused in housing projects is where I'd start.

 

I think that workforce participation is a much more potent driver of social harmony and integration than most people realize - and is often at least as potent in shaping the attitudes of native citizens as it is immigrants.

 

i wonder why is it that immigrants from former soviet block move to england ireland, france or other countries and they don't lock themselves in a ghettos? and why is it that they can find jobs and immigrants from north africa can't?

 

I'd venture a guess that at least part of it has to do with the fact that they're likely to have better education and training, but I suspect that the values and aspirations that they bring with them - none of which (except perhaps the strong work ethic )conflict with the culture that they've moved into - play a much larger role.

 

Why do you think the disparity exists?

 

better education? oh please, give me a brake. it has to do with culture and mentality of entitlement.

 

[Hugh Conway]

I also think that Canada, Brazil, Australia, the US, etc enjoy a huge advantage in terms of immigrants since all feature an open identity that immigrants can adopt simply by choosing to do so.

 

Much tougher when the identity in question is composed of a state, an ethnicity, and a language.

 

They do hold some advantage but even they (or at least Canada, the US and Australia) cling to some obscure notion of what a citizen should be thats tilted towards the White Anglo-Saxon

[JayB]

I also think that Canada, Brazil, Australia, the US, etc enjoy a huge advantage in terms of immigrants since all feature an open identity that immigrants can adopt simply by choosing to do so.

 

Much tougher when the identity in question is composed of a state, an ethnicity, and a language.

 

They do hold some advantage but even they (or at least Canada, the US and Australia) cling to some obscure notion of what a citizen should be thats tilted towards the White Anglo-Saxon

 

Like what?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I also think that Canada, Brazil, Australia, the US, etc enjoy a huge advantage in terms of immigrants since all feature an open identity that immigrants can adopt simply by choosing to do so.

 

Much tougher when the identity in question is composed of a state, an ethnicity, and a language.

 

They do hold some advantage but even they (or at least Canada, the US and Australia) cling to some obscure notion of what a citizen should be thats tilted towards the White Anglo-Saxon

 

Like what?

 

My question is just exactly what "obscure notion of what a citizen should be" that is "tilted towards White" and "Anglo Saxon" - sounds like the same old tired, bullshit (racist) rhetoric. I don't see anything about the responsibilities/expectations of a citizen in the US that is racist or "Anglo Saxon". Pay taxes, vote, participate in politics if you want, volunteer. Yeah, that's so "white".

 

 

[JayB]

 

 

Seems accurate in the Euro context.

 

Liberalizing their labor markets and reforming their welfare policies so that immigrants have the incentive and the means to participate more extensively in society, instead of being locked out of the job market and warehoused in housing projects is where I'd start.

 

I think that workforce participation is a much more potent driver of social harmony and integration than most people realize - and is often at least as potent in shaping the attitudes of native citizens as it is immigrants.

 

i wonder why is it that immigrants from former soviet block move to england ireland, france or other countries and they don't lock themselves in a ghettos? and why is it that they can find jobs and immigrants from north africa can't?

 

I'd venture a guess that at least part of it has to do with the fact that they're likely to have better education and training, but I suspect that the values and aspirations that they bring with them - none of which (except perhaps the strong work ethic )conflict with the culture that they've moved into - play a much larger role.

 

Why do you think the disparity exists?

 

better education? oh please, give me a brake. it has to do with culture and mentality of entitlement.

 

Seems like an argument for restructuring welfare so that it promotes participation in the workforce, especially in communities that have the mindset that you speak of.

 

I don't think it's fair to do this, though, unless you have a labor market where the guy with a fourth grade education and a limited command of the language can be hired at a wage rate that doesn't guarantee an hourly loss for whomever hires him - since no one will hire the guy under those conditions.

 

Toss in a "negative income tax" if you're afraid that allowing employers to pay people what their skills are worth will have negative social consequences, and you've got a much less costly and more socially constructive incentive system than the "rigid labor market + high structural unemployment + expansive welfare" model.

 

 

[JayB]

I also think that Canada, Brazil, Australia, the US, etc enjoy a huge advantage in terms of immigrants since all feature an open identity that immigrants can adopt simply by choosing to do so.

 

Much tougher when the identity in question is composed of a state, an ethnicity, and a language.

 

They do hold some advantage but even they (or at least Canada, the US and Australia) cling to some obscure notion of what a citizen should be thats tilted towards the White Anglo-Saxon

 

Like what?

 

My question is just exactly what "obscure notion of what a citizen should be" that is "tilted towards White" and "Anglo Saxon" - sounds like the same old tired, bullshit (racist) rhetoric. I don't see anything about the responsibilities/expectations of a citizen in the US that is racist or "Anglo Saxon". Pay taxes, vote, participate in politics if you want, volunteer. Yeah, that's so "white".

 

"One of the grandest ironies of cultural relativism is that it's never been embraced by it's intended beneficiaries."

 

 

[glassgowkiss]

jayb- my reference to ideology of entitlement was towards immigrants from north africa. if your education sucks and you don't speak language what makes you think you can work for more then a minimum wage (which in EU is much, much higher then here). and a lot of people moving to western europe from afica have higher education. also the question is why don't they flock to language schools?

the problem is that in general you don't get the same problems with immigrants from muslim and non-muslim countries. so as you see it is an issue f religion and culture that this religion creates.

[JayB]

I don't think that people with a poor education and little or no grasp of the local language are essentially unemployable at the minimum wage rate that prevails in most countries - but especially in Europe. They're priced out of the market in the same way that dentists would be if the government passed regulations that mandated that semi-annual checkups had to be sold for a minimum price of $1000 each.

 

I suspect that they don't flock to the language schools because there's an incentive system in place that makes it possible to get by without learning the language. If you're priced out of the labor market, and you get the same check in the mail no matter what you do - then why bother unless there's a cultural imperative to do so?

 

Unfortunately for Europe - the combined weight of rising pension obligations and a falling birthrate is going to leave them with few options that they're likely to be happy with unless productivity growth outpaces declines in the labor force. I'd be handing out Visas with cash bonuses in the Hindu portions of India if I were them....

[Peter_Puget]

These guys seem worried.....

 

http://www.islam-watch.org/AyeshaAhmed/London-Imam-Attempt-to-Carry-Out-Sunna.htm

 

And by the way aren't they following Wilder's advice?

[Hugh Conway]

My question is just exactly what "obscure notion of what a citizen should be" that is "tilted towards White" and "Anglo Saxon" - sounds like the same old tired, bullshit (racist) rhetoric. I don't see anything about the responsibilities/expectations of a citizen in the US that is racist or "Anglo Saxon". Pay taxes, vote, participate in politics if you want, volunteer. Yeah, that's so "white".

 

Requirements that English be the sole language of the US for one. It was not the primary language (colonial or otherwise) for a majority of the US landmass. French and Spanish could lay equal claim.

[archenemy]

Primary language. Not sole language. Just semantics, I know....

[Hugh Conway]

Primary language. Not sole language. Just semantics, I know....

 

Please parse "English Only" for me

[olyclimber]

I prefer "speak American"

[Hugh Conway]

I prefer "speak American"

 

I didn't know you were fluent in W

[olyclimber]

why do you insist on "Blaming America First" hugh?

[Hugh Conway]

why do you insist on "Blaming America First" hugh?

 

Because we don't make people fill out residence permit forms in quintuplicate like Austria and have insistances on "cultural values"

[KaskadskyjKozak]

why do you insist on "Blaming America First" hugh?

 

Because we don't make people fill out residence permit forms in quintuplicate like Austria and have insistances on "cultural values"

 

Your application didn't go through, eh?

[Hugh Conway]

Your application didn't go through, eh?

 

When they showed me the Integration Agreement it summed zero from -infinity to +infinity

 

can you guess which empire Kafka was from?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Your application didn't go through, eh?

 

When they showed me the Integration Agreement it summed zero from -infinity to +infinity

 

can you guess which empire Kafka was from?

 

Was ist deine Probleme? Wie man will im Oesterreich leben, muB man die Deutsche Sprache lernen, nicht wahr?

 

[archenemy]

Primary language. Not sole language. Just semantics, I know....

 

Please parse "English Only" for me

I spent plenty of time parsing Latin, but not so much in plain old English. If you really think that "English Only" needs syntactic analysis, you need more help than I can give you. My apologies.

[Hugh Conway]

Primary language. Not sole language. Just semantics, I know....

 

Please parse "English Only" for me

I spent plenty of time parsing Latin, but not so much in plain old English. If you really think that "English Only" needs syntactic analysis, you need more help than I can give you. My apologies.

 

I'm quite clear on it - I figured you were experiencing difficulties.

[archenemy]

The only difficulty I am experiencing is you.