WTF IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE

[archenemy]

I am not a live and let live person. I do not believe in cultural relativism. When people are doing something wrong, I agree that others have the right to step in and make them stop doing it. So, for example (using this one b/c I am lazy and I think most people are aware of it and agree with it), when a whole religion still focuses on oppressing women to the degree this one does (yes, even the "moderate" believers do this), I am against it.

 

Sure, I am against the fundamentalists in our own country who do this as well (fundamental Mormon church is my favorite target); but I do believe it is quite obvious women here have it way better than women in the middle east. And when one person is oppressed, we are all oppressed.

[rob]

And when one person is oppressed, we are all oppressed.

 

I think I love you

[tvashtarkatena]

If you had any first hand experience in what your pretend to be talking about, you might have a bit more credibility. You don't, so it's just spray.

 

Live and let live does not imply living with injustice, obviously. It does mean not giving in to uninformed hate mongering, however. That's something you might work on a bit. You're easily swayed.

 

Kicking the Taliban's ass (temporarily) was necessary. Fighting over 200 million practitioners of a religion you have a child's understanding of is not.

Edited February 13, 2008 by tvashtarkatena

[archenemy]

You really don't know much about the folks on this site. There are ones who won't fess up here (and I greatly respect that) about their direct experience with exactly what we are talking about. I also have no need to justify exactly how I came to know and believe what I do to you. It is easy for you to try to undermine me rather than try to undermine what I say. It makes me feel sorry for you.

[rob]

I haven't met many muslims. I knew one guy from Saudi Arabia who was an exchange student. He was a complete asshole, but I don't think that was because of his religion. He must have had a tiny dick or something, cause he compensated by acting like a huge one.

 

I worked with another guy who was islamic. He was a nice guy, but didn't let his wife drive. That's pretty much all I know about him.

 

Maybe it's not fair to blame islam for the mysogeny of its followers; it's probably best to blame the followers themselves. After all, in the end people need to be responsible for their own actions.

 

Personally, I think religion is primitive. But, that's just me.

[tvashtarkatena]

It makes me feel sorry for you.

 

Is this the new Muffy/Achie schtick?

 

Get real.

[rob]

someone argue with me.

[archenemy]

Rob, you are wrong.

[rob]

that wasn't satisfying.

[tvashtarkatena]

I feel sorry for you.

[archenemy]

that wasn't satisfying.

On the contrary, I was quite satified.

[rob]

are you always this selfish?

[archenemy]

Usually more so.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

One of my childhood friends was a muslim. Two things that I remember distinctly:

 

1) He told me that he was playing with matches one day and threw a couple at his sister (lit). She told his father. The father told my friend that if he did it again, he would cut off my friend's hand. Yes, that's part of the muslim "tradition".

 

2) During an assembly in 5th grade, my friend passed out and fell on some bleachers and banged his head hard. Turns out he passed out due to hunger. It was Ramadan and he had to fast all day. He was 11.

 

And I've known quite a few other muslims since then.

 

This post is a response to Rob and Archie. I really don't care what Trashcanlicker thinks about this topic.

[archenemy]

I don't see why they would cut the kid's hand off. He was just practicing honor killing. Kinda like playing house.

[rob]

I really don't care what Trashcanlicker thinks about this topic.

 

Man, I'm so sick of name calling.

[builder206]

Try working for a French boss on a job whose most important subcontractor is German.

[tvashtarkatena]

Yes, I'm sure the father was serious.

 

And the injustice of children being denied food (in a country where nearly half of them are obese)!

 

You just WON the Drama Queen of the week award, KKK. Take a break.

[prole]

"I reject the moral pretense used to justify blatant aggression if only because these very same people waging the wars are opposed to even paying lip service to racial/gender equality and human rights in any other context except the muslim one."

 

1)You seem to be equating criticism and condemnation with aggression.

 

2)Even if one accepts your closing proposition at face value (who is the one doing the essentializing here, exactly?), this argument seems to rest on something along the lines of "Anyone who fails to support living wage legislation is in *no* position to condemn honor-killings, forced marriage, or suicide bombings."

Or do I misunderstand your line of reasoning here?

 

Oh, by all means then I’d be happy to join in the CC.com Victorian Ladies Sewing Circle circle-jerk. “Oooh, aren’t they just so savage! Oh yes quite! So barbaric their religious rituals, when will they simply grow up? Sorry dear, I just don’t think they’re quite up for it.” What’s the point? Or are you suggesting that the major actors (the US government) are doing something about it and should be supported? As usual, the most vehement defenders of women’s liberty on this board in the Islamic context are also those most likely to denounce as kooks, commies, and parlor Marxists those raising the issues of racial and gender equality, violence against women and human rights in other contexts. While I don’t know that one must condemn and criticize everything in order to criticize and condemn one thing, some consistency on this point would lead one to believe that those people were something more than hypocritical opportunists.

i don't think there is a discrete differentiation between the two; the concept of "metaphysics" is entirely a "historical phenomenon" in the sense that ALL concepts have a history and are intimately enmeshed within this historical context (using a word as somehow devoid of its historicity i think belies the actual conditionality of the word).

Further, it elides the connections between political islam and islam itself. the movements you mention have ALL identified with the core "teachings" of Muhammed, interpreting them as they see fit.

We can talk about actual conditions, and justifications for one's positions etc etc, but i think it's important to understand what kind of world a proponent of particular ideas may wish for.

 

Sure. I would stress that my point here is to try and understand that history and why such ideas or any idea becomes popular, gains adherents, and becomes important at that particular time. Yes, there are militant teachings in the Koran just as there are in the Bible. Why are those particular aspects so powerful at this historical juncture? How has the context changed that gives such ideas new life? The same questions can be asked with regard to American fundamentalism, ethnic violence in Kenya, or riots in suburban Paris. Why now? Simply stating that it’s religious extremism or that “these people have been killing themselves for thousands of years”, or “it’s Islam” or were in a “clash of civilizations” is simply neither historically accurate or particularly helpful understanding social change or in solving problems. Metaphysical and faith-based interpretations of current events like these need to be rejected by thoughtful people.

[tvashtarkatena]

Try working for a French boss on a job whose most important subcontractor is German.

 

We had a British telecom, French radio manufacturer, German airline, and an American phone system manufacturer all working on the same project. WWII was less contentious.

[archenemy]

The point is that they are killing us and others around the world due to their beliefs. I consider it acceptable to respond to mortal threat with deadly force.

[tvashtarkatena]

I don't see why they would cut the kid's hand off. He was just practicing honor killing. Kinda like playing house.

 

If my Dad didn't threaten to kill one of us at least once a day, we'd have thought something was really wrong.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

The point is that they are killing us and others around the world due to their beliefs. I consider it acceptable to respond to mortal threat with deadly force.

 

you mean singing kumbayah will not work?

[archenemy]

and waterboarding. So there.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

and waterboarding. So there.

 

or burying their dead in pig skins and feces.