accident on Harvey?

[JayB]

Don't have anything to add, other than my sincere condolences and the hope that what Don and others have put forth here will help you work through the pain and grief that your brother's death has caused you.

[pindude]

Yes, indeed very well put. Wise words not just for this accident but for those of us grieving the loss of others in the mountains as well. Don, thanks very much. Peter, my sincere condolences and best wishes for you, Paul's widow Im Mei and your families, and all of Paul's friends. --Steve Reynolds

 

From Tami Knight's Alpinist memoriam (which Drew linked to earlier), "an illustration Paul drew for his wedding":

 

[Peter Dedi]

hey, you guys, thanks for the responses and the wishes, but don't forget it is also easy to just dismiss me as the grieving relative trying to blame someone, - I never said that my brother never made a mistake stricking out on it own - and leaving his pack behind and his phone - very very uncharacteristic of him - and you can interprete by tone how you use wish - but I still don't see how you can walk down on your partner - without at least making a phone call - a minimum of effort, something you would do for someone on the street, let alone someone on a freezing mountain alone - and I did try to talk to his partner and I did ask him why he didn't use the phone and his response was "I don't like mobile phones, I don't trust them and I don't use them" - a rather Luddite and insensitive response, but I'm sure he has his own principles and reasons - I just have a tough time understanding them - and I have tried to get information from him but it was extremely difficult - but that is a differnt story, no problem, that's his choice - I also know Paul suited up and took his chances, I'm not an idiot - it's just I think a lot of guys read a lot of heroic climbing books and then just walk away... my question was just as I stated and no one really anwsered (maybe you guys can't, we - Paul's friends and family - can't) why you just walk down...

[Peter Dedi]

Dear Don,

you sound like a professional with your "get over your mode of thinking" talk. I don't feel a need to blame, I asked a question of more experienced climbers, I do often feel the need to try to understand. I don't think a phone call on your way down is too much to ask for someone who is your partner and I just was trying to understand why.

[TrogdortheBurninator]

Hi Peter,

 

If Paul had ventured up a route that his partner was uncomfortable with as a roped companion, it probably isnt entirely reasonable to expect the partner to head back up that same route alone.

 

It also needs to be understood that the concept of overdue is highly subjective. Without knowing the timeline, it is hard to speculate specifics, but a few hours late over the course of a climb is not typically a concern. In winter, as nightfall approaches it does become a concern, especially seeing as your brother left behind so much of his gear.

[ivan]

do you get cell reception there? most places in the n cascades you don't. was the phone functional? if you don't keep the battery warm, they often don't work. i don't know that i would have called in a rescue so quickly either, especially if hadn't heard or seen anything that made me think he'd been hurt.

 

how well did these two guys know each other? how often had they climbed together? how experienced were they? how well did they tend to communicate? if they were mostly acquantinces who didn't understand each other well, the partner might have thought he was taking another way down, or been confused as to what exactly he had wanted from him? under what circumstances did they split up anyhow? it's pretty unusual for one partner to leave the other in the first place, and indicative perhaps of them not getting along - if i choose to continue when a friend of mine didn't want to, i certainly wouldn't expect him to sit aroudn in the freezing cold while i was off having fun.

 

i'm confused as to what the partner did when he got down. it seems like S&R folks were notified pretty quickly? if he'd gone out to the bar, gone to sleep, woken up the next day and not said a thing till noon, that would clearly have been retarded.

 

i guess the bottom line is the question of "why didn't he call before going down" is very, very hard to answer w/o having clear answers to a lot of other questions. as an expereinced climber, it's not difficult for me to see an answer to your original question that doesn't involve fear or incompetence on the part of the partner.

 

what else do you know of his partner?

[Choada_Boy]

I have to add that this is, IMHO, a terrible forum for this type of discussion.

 

My condolences for your loss, but this medium has historically demonstrated itself as volatile and insensitive and I feel that your quest here for understanding about such a tragic event may lead you in the wrong directions.

[ivan]

I have to add that this is, IMHO, a terrible forum for this type of discussion.

 

My condolences for your loss, but this medium has historically demonstrated itself as volatile and insensitive and I feel that your quest here for understanding about such a tragic event may lead you in the wrong directions.

can't argue w/ that - but then, where is a good place? this thread has a much better chance of avoiding the mt hood debacle-style degeneration though b/c it wasn't spawned by a monstrous wave of publicity

[jmace]

my question was just as I stated and no one really anwsered (maybe you guys can't, we - Paul's friends and family - can't) why you just walk down...

 

The answer lies with the partner

 

However, IF Paul was climbing the North face of Harvey he would have descended the backside and met up with his partner on the road which is only a short distance from the parking lot. So in realtity it would not be out of the question to walk back to the vehicle to see if he was there before calling or organizing a search.

 

Dont take Dons advice lightly.

[G-spotter]

Let's say I am out with a partner. At the base of a climb I don't want to climb it. My partner decides to climb it, leaves his pack and takes off. At that point we are split up. He made his choice. I become responsible first for getting MYSELF out to safety. So I would start descending immediately.

 

Without hindsight there is no reason yet why I should be making a phone call. I don't know anything has gone wrong. All I know is that my partner has taken off on me on something I did not want to do, and I have retreated.

[ivan]

Let's say I am out with a partner. At the base of a climb I don't want to climb it. My partner decides to climb it, leaves his pack and takes off. At that point we are split up. He made his choice. I become responsible first for getting MYSELF out to safety. So I would start descending immediately.

 

Without hindsight there is no reason yet why I should be making a phone call. I don't know anything has gone wrong. All I know is that my partner has taken off on me on something I did not want to do, and I have retreated.

exactly - unless we're friends and it's cool and i'm like "dude, i'll just sit here n'drink whiskey 'til you get back"

[climbaround]

Peter,

 

I agree with Don's wise words, and G-spotter's view that once they split each of them was primarily responsible for themselves. Sounds like Paul's partner was nice enough to carry out the gear Paul didn't want to weigh him down on his climb. Of course we have some responsibility when and if we think our partner is in trouble, but that is hard to pin down in such a situation. I know I've almost hurt myself when rushing to get out when I was overdue and thought a rescue might be called.

 

I have split up with partners many times in the mountains, esp. when one is slower and doesn't think they'll make the summit. A few times in the distant past this has led to major screw ups (while hiking out of the Wind Rivers an entire day and night was spent trying to figure out what the other person was doing - I was very worried, my partner correctly figured we were both competent and would meet up at the car). I've learned the hard way that very clear communication and an explicit plan is necessary to avoid such situations - where and when will you meet up (and wait), when to worry, and when to call a rescue should be delineated. Winter conditions certainly up the ante if an accident occurs, as was so tragically illustrated here, so soloing must be taken very seriously.

 

So sorry for your loss.

[Bug]

Hi Peter,

My sincere condolances.

I have been the partner waiting many times as it was common for my friends and I to split up and do separate routes for recon purposes. On those occaisions when it was late and dark, I was always torn about what to do. Bear in mind I knew these people well. To call in a rescue seemed extreme but to do nothing, equally bad. I usually chose to search. They always wandered back or I found my partners. I have been climbing all my life and started searching for my wayward father early in life. He had a bad habit of getting very lost. Even so, we all want to wait just a little longer for that reassuring yell.

So anyway, I did not have the bad luck to end up waiting too long for someone who desperately needed help. But that could have been the case numerous times. There just is no way to know without carefully pre-arranging it beforehand. Most people never do that. We just say, "I'll meet you over there when I am done." So confusion reigns. Now add to that the result that your brother met. His partner must be racked with guilt. Most people would be. He has probably been unable to face his own mistakes and shortcomings. I wonder if he has asked himself, "Why didn't I just go with him?" And then to face you with your questions. This must have been very difficult for him.

In truth, I cannot speak for him or for your brother so I will tell you what I have told people who worried about me.

I climb because I love it. I can not conceive of a life without climbing. I would no longer be myself. I take great pains to climb safely and to keep my partners safe but I have seen many mistakes happen and have made too many myself. If I were to die climbing, I first would ask that you remember I died doing something I chose to do. If someone is with me, they too chose to be there. If you know ME, you know that they did not control me. If they made a mistake that results in my death, celebrate my life and help them to look forward to the rest of theirs.

 

Just my gut feeling from very general human understanding; tell him you are sorry he was involved in this tragedy and that you forgive him for any mistakes he might have made.

My guess is that if you are sincere, you will see him vent a flood of remorse, guilt, and pain.

 

[Peter Dedi]

Hey you guys,

 

Again, thanks for all your wishes and responses, they are helpful especially for a non-climber, that is why I posed them. I understand most but find ones like the following a little odd...

 

"My condolences for your loss, but this medium has historically demonstrated itself as volatile and insensitive and I feel that your quest here for understanding about such a tragic event may lead you in the wrong directions."

 

First, there is no other forum that I know of to learn more about this and second the sort of veiled threat that by asking questions or trying to learn more about what happened that we (his friends and family) will learn or some dark secret will be revealed about my brother... what could that be... what could be worse than what happened... this was the attitude of some during his celebration of life party... we though it was just because his partner worked at MEC... strange kind of scare tactics that actually make you want to know more...

 

Anyway, not to end on a bad note... thanks for discussing this.

 

P.S. of oourse we checked that the phone reception was good, and most of us just thought his pack would be more useful left on the hill or trail where if he did come down that single way available it would have been useful to him.

 

cheers, safe climbing

 

 

[snoboy]

Peter: I think that being a newcomer to cc.com, you may not catch the full drift of what Choada_Boy is getting at.

 

Threads that were started to talk about accidents such as your brothers have sometimes gone in directions that were less than useful or sensitive. In this case, there was not a lot of publicity, and your thread is in one of the lesser visited sections of the message board.

 

I thought that this thread was exemplary in it's on topic and frank discussion.

 

Condolences for your loss. I hope you and your family find some closure.

 

 

 

I have to add that this is, IMHO, a terrible forum for this type of discussion.

 

My condolences for your loss, but this medium has historically demonstrated itself as volatile and insensitive and I feel that your quest here for understanding about such a tragic event may lead you in the wrong directions.

can't argue w/ that - but then, where is a good place? this thread has a much better chance of avoiding the mt hood debacle-style degeneration though b/c it wasn't spawned by a monstrous wave of publicity

[Peter Dedi]

Fair enough, Snoboy. thanks for the wishes.

[Jud]

Some months have passed since this accident --but I only just learned of it (having been on the N Face of Harvey two weekend's ago in pretty sketchy conditions, that I naively didn't realize were sketchy...and there had been an avalanche there the previous weekend, and a rescue, which I wasn't aware of. I'd been climbing with my rock partner, belaying every pitch on the rotting snow, and being very careful...we eventually bailed and downclimbed from up high).

 

Does anyone have any more details of what happened to Peter Dedi? Was it rock or ice fall, or the climber slipping/falling, or something else? I wasn't able to find any more info on ACC accident reports, and am very curious about the accident. All I know is that Peter Dedi was soloing, which presumably was a factor, but doesn't explain much at all about the nature of the accident.

 

Thanks for any info.