New Route Ethics- Consensus

[adamsbud]

 

So my question is this, isn't it considered correct to stay off someone's route until they free it. It takes a lot of work to clean a route out here in the PNW. That is unless they take years to lead it or leave it for good? Recently someone told me to go and free a route that his friend had scrubbed the week before. I thought that was pretty rude and sure to cause bad feelings in a small community with very few climbers. This guy seems to be a bit of a glory hound always out for himself anyways.....

[sexual_chocolate]

if someone bolts a route, they should get 6 mo's, imo.

 

6 months.

 

6 months yes.

[ericb]

Your title is an oxymoron

[Bug]

Anything goes!

Keep it secret Frodo.

[Off_White]

Hot Henry wouldn't have waited six months!

 

Still, that's a reasonable notion, certainly some sort of window is appropriate. If the route is rapped, scrubbed, tr'd, and rap bolted it seems like the "FA" is less significant than the first onsight anyway, modern route development in the NW tends to take a lot of the mystery and fear out of a first ascent and substitute a bunch of hard and grubby work. That sort of sweat equity should give someone a good shot at the first ascent, if that's what they want.

[mattp]

i say it'd be pretty cold to go jump on the guy's line a week later, that's for sure. Especially if you know the climber is still involved with his project, or at least was recently involved with it, why not climb something else? I've taken a couple of years to complete a route and while I wouldn't have been completely shattered if somebody jumped on it mid-stream, I would certainly have thought that person was a bit of a jerk if they knew what the status was.

[kevbone]

I agree Matt. IF YOU HOP ON ROUTE KNOWING SOMEONE ELSE WHO CLEANED IT IS STILL WORKING IT….YOU ARE AND ASSHOLE. AND YOUR ONLY CONCERN IS YOUR EGO……. Plain and simple.

 

As far as time lines……please contact the FA party and start a conversation.

 

[tradclimbguy]

I think Bug hit the nail on the head. If you don't keep it secret then you'll always have to worry about all the assholes out their willing to jump your line.

 

Some of us will be considerate and give you the time needed but there will always be somebody out there who thinks they've given you enough time, or that the route was theirs first or that they just plain don't care.

 

Simple question... Simple Answer...

[mattp]

I strongly disagree with the idea that you have no right to ask or expect any consideration from anyone and we should all keep our projects secret. I realize that is not exactly what you said, and I agree that, yes, there will always be assholes out there. But quite often it is the secretive ones who are the assholes and efforts toward secrecy may heighten mistrust, drive competition, and cause other problems.

[sexual_chocolate]

I agree Matt. IF YOU HOP ON ROUTE KNOWING SOMEONE ELSE WHO CLEANED IT IS STILL WORKING IT….YOU ARE AND ASSHOLE. AND YOUR ONLY CONCERN IS YOUR EGO……. Plain and simple.

 

 

you seem to have serious problems with ego....

 

 

 

the idea that someone can go put bolts on a piece of rock on public land and claim it as theirs, or claim a trad line on public land, is an assenine notion.

 

Ri-fucking-donkuluos. it's fucking ego that says "mine mine. i found it so stay off."

 

 

i consider it a polite gesture to give someone 6 months to rp a route they cleaned and or bolted, nothing else.

 

there's no friggin' personal ownership of public land, bitches.

 

Edited December 6, 2007 by sexual_chocolate

[sexual_chocolate]

Some of us will be considerate and give you the time needed but there will always be somebody out there who thinks they've given you enough time, or that the route was theirs first or that they just plain don't care.

 

Simple question... Simple Answer...

 

yeah right, real simple.

 

"give you the time needed".... what the fuck?

 

"oh gee it's been 10 years now i know, but i need just another couple of years and it's mine mine all mine buahahahahaaaaaa!!!!"

 

 

cleaning and bolting a line and saying "it's mine" is all about ego, NOTHING ELSE.

 

I know, i've done it and been there, and it's an attempt to immortalize oneself; if that part didn't matter, the person would simply say to anyone who wanted to try: "have at it."

[mattp]

the idea that someone can go put bolts on a piece of rock on public land, or claim a trad line on public land, is an assenine notion.

 

I agree that public lands are public and all, so the idea that we have "exclusive rights" to say who can and cannot climb "our" route, or when they can climb it, is marginal at best. However, there is plenty that is asinine about climbing and that doesn't stop us from having all kinds of expectations regarding other climbers' behavior.

 

[hafilax]

I don't think this is really something that the community can decide on. There's a long history of snaking lines so there's no real precedent. The person who found the line might be happy to let someone else get on it as long as they could name it or something. They may rather chop the bolts than let someone else free it. I'd just talk to him. It sounds like you know him on some level.

[sexual_chocolate]

the idea that someone can go put bolts on a piece of rock on public land, or claim a trad line on public land, is an assenine notion.

 

I agree that public lands are public and all, so the idea that we have "exclusive rights" to say who can and cannot climb "our" route, or when they can climb it, is marginal at best. However, there is plenty that is asinine about climbing and that doesn't stop us from having all kinds of expectations regarding other climbers' behavior.

 

of course it doesn't stop us from having expectations, but when those specific expectations are categorically asinine (thanks!), then screw 'em.

 

 

when i have a route i'm working and i'm feeling a bit attached to the FA, i simply won't disclose its locale to competing testosterone-laden apes (it's about mating rights here, and gotta protect the pussy, bitches).

[mattp]

Do as you must, cocoa, but if you know that somebody cleans and bolts a route, and they're working on the first redpoint and, further if you know they'd be upset if you jumped on it, I'd say you would be a jerk to ignore their wishes just because six months and a week have gone by.

[kevbone]

 

 

cleaning and bolting a line and saying "it's mine" is all about ego, NOTHING ELSE.

 

That is correct...but staying off it until the FFA has been done by the person who put it up is all about respect……and there is not enough of the latter as of late.

[mattp]

Respect, maybe, but really I think we're talking about just plain consideration here. Respect implies a bit more of an appreciation for what the route developer is doing than many of us may have for a given project. The way you use it, I think it also implies some obligation and i think it is the notion of "obligation" that Cocoa is questioning.

 

I think it is more like a golden rule kind or thing: do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. If you know they guy wouldn't want you to jump on his line, you should ask yourself why you might be compelled to ignore his wishes? And then consider what that says about whether he or anybody else should pay attention to yours in some other instance?

 

We could make up all kinds of scenarios here where climber A or climber B is "asking too much," but the basic answer involves more of a sniff test than a black and white rule in my opinion.

[Bug]

There are so many people who will "steal" your line.

Why would you tell anybody?

My guess is that we are talking about someplace very visible.

Smith or Index vs Something on LongJohn Tower or deep in Renton.

In this case, I thought there was "local consensus" and Policing decided on in another thread.

 

 

[sexual_chocolate]

Do as you must, cocoa, but if you know that somebody cleans and bolts a route, and they're working on the first redpoint and, further if you know they'd be upset if you jumped on it, I'd say you would be a jerk to ignore their wishes just because six months and a week have gone by.

 

the idea that a person can claim a line indefinitely seems misguided at best, and it seems as though you suggest that honoring such a claim is the only polite way to proceed.

 

I am saying that it's quite the opposite, and a decent case can be made that to claim ANY line as one's own reeks of impoliteness. Artists of Japanese tradition would not even sign their paintings because to do so would be an obvious reference to self, ie ego (ego transcendence is what they were after, although certainly not the case with most climbers today).

 

So to me, claiming rights to a piece of publically owned rock is nothing but ego aggrandisement, and it needs to be understood as what it is. It's a need to be first, a need to be recognized, a need to leave a territorial piss mark upon the landscape of the climbing community. Whether or not you think this an acceptable form of behaviour is irrelevant really (since i concede a 6 month window for one to leave this stain), but let's at least call it what it is.

[hafilax]

Maybe the person who scrubbed it should fill it back in with all the moss, mud and lichen they pulled out of it and let you have at it then. There should be a little respect for the work put into it above just wanting to have they're name in a guidebook.

[kevbone]

Do as you must, cocoa, but if you know that somebody cleans and bolts a route, and they're working on the first redpoint and, further if you know they'd be upset if you jumped on it, I'd say you would be a jerk to ignore their wishes just because six months and a week have gone by.

 

the idea that a person can claim a line indefinitely seems misguided at best, and it seems as though you suggest that honoring such a claim is the only polite way to proceed.

 

I am saying that it's quite the opposite, and a decent case can be made that to claim ANY line as one's own reeks of impoliteness. Artists of Japanese tradition would not even sign their paintings because to do so would be an obvious reference to self, ie ego (ego transcendence is what they were after, although certainly not the case with most climbers today).

 

So to me, claiming rights to a piece of publically owned rock is nothing but ego aggrandisement, and it needs to be understood as what it is. It's a need to be first, a need to be recognized, a need to leave a territorial piss mark upon the landscape of the climbing community. Whether or not you think this an acceptable form of behaviour is irrelevant really (since i concede a 6 month window for one to leave this stain), but let's at least call it what it is.

 

 

You keep saying this, and we have all agreed. Do you have anything else to add?

[sexual_chocolate]

i really need some chickens. brown egg variety. but they root up the yard. i guess i'll get a mini goat instead.

[kevbone]

i really need some chickens. brown egg variety. but they root up the yard. i guess i'll get a mini goat instead.

 

[tradclimbguy]

Some of us will be considerate and give you the time needed but there will always be somebody out there who thinks they've given you enough time, or that the route was theirs first or that they just plain don't care.

 

Simple question... Simple Answer...

 

yeah right, real simple.

 

"give you the time needed".... what the fuck?

 

"oh gee it's been 10 years now i know, but i need just another couple of years and it's mine mine all mine buahahahahaaaaaa!!!!"

 

 

cleaning and bolting a line and saying "it's mine" is all about ego, NOTHING ELSE.

 

I know, i've done it and been there, and it's an attempt to immortalize oneself; if that part didn't matter, the person would simply say to anyone who wanted to try: "have at it."

 

Do you just spew to hear yourself? Maybe you should spend more time reading and contemplating posts before writing more bullshit.

 

I never justified giving the FA party exclusive rights, I just pointed out some people may not honor the possible hard work you spent to prep a route. If the route wasn't an ego stroke then it wouldn't be much of a deal but it still might perturb you a bit.

 

My point is there is NO time limit and there will ALWAYS be enough justification for SOMEONE to jump on and snag a route that's in the middle of being set up before the FA stepped back and sends it.

 

So go troll somewhere else and get off your own high horse. If you find new route then get on it. I don't give a flying fuck what you think, but learn to read.

 

Time to move this crap to spray. The only thing consistent with cc.com is that "All threads lead to spray". As always much appreciated.

[sexual_chocolate]

Some of us will be considerate and give you the time needed but there will always be somebody out there who thinks they've given you enough time, or that the route was theirs first or that they just plain don't care.

 

Simple question... Simple Answer...

 

yeah right, real simple.

 

"give you the time needed".... what the fuck?

 

"oh gee it's been 10 years now i know, but i need just another couple of years and it's mine mine all mine buahahahahaaaaaa!!!!"

 

 

cleaning and bolting a line and saying "it's mine" is all about ego, NOTHING ELSE.

 

I know, i've done it and been there, and it's an attempt to immortalize oneself; if that part didn't matter, the person would simply say to anyone who wanted to try: "have at it."

 

Do you just spew to hear yourself? Maybe you should spend more time reading and contemplating posts before writing more bullshit.

 

I never justified giving the FA party exclusive rights, I just pointed out some people may not honor the possible hard work you spent to prep a route. If the route wasn't an ego stroke then it wouldn't be much of a deal but it still might perturb you a bit.

 

My point is there is NO time limit and there will ALWAYS be enough justification for SOMEONE to jump on and snag a route that's in the middle of being set up before the FA stepped back and sends it.

 

So go troll somewhere else and get off your own high horse. If you find new route then get on it. I don't give a flying fuck what you think, but learn to read.

 

Time to move this crap to spray. The only thing consistent with cc.com is that "All threads lead to spray". As always much appreciated.

 

 

"Some of us will be considerate and give you the time needed..."

 

I'm pretty sure you said the above, since it's a quote from your post.