ericb Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Does anybody here, liberal or conservative, think that Native American whaling rights should be protected??? This is ridiculous http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004017427_whale16m.html "A gray whale illegally killed by five members of the Makah tribe in the Strait of Juan de Fuca in September took nearly 10 hours to die because the hunters didn't know what they were doing and shot the animal in the wrong place, according to a new tribal report" "The five men set out into the Strait from the downtown dock at Neah Bay and quickly found a gray whale. They harpooned the animal four times and shot it 16 times. They had taken with them the right gun for the job: a .577-caliber rifle, the same gun that had been powerful enough to quickly kill the whale legally in 1999. But the gun was misfired and wound up overboard. The men also had a Weatherby .460 Magnum rifle and a shotgun aboard. But the .460 did not have the power to kill the whale quickly unless fired directly at the brain stem. The untrained marksmen shot at the wrong part of the whale's head and didn't hit its brain stem. They also may have used the wrong ammunition." "Instead of swimming normally, during the first 3 ½ hours of his observation the whale used its tail to swim only two or three times, Scordino reported. The whale used only its pectoral flippers to swim, trying to keep its head above water. Only the top of the whale's head and blow hole were visible, and it swam in a slow, counterclockwise pattern, with no apparent recognition of where it was." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I'm fine with it. Whale tastes good, is healthy, lean and cheap protein for these folks. Futhermore, it is a traditional way for them to bond and share a common concern. No problem here, sounds like the dudes weren't playing by OUR rules, that and a bunch of overpaid government workers stepped in and allowed it to be wasted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I'm fine with it. Whale tastes good, is healthy, lean and cheap protein for these folks. Futhermore, it is a traditional way for them to bond and share a common concern. No problem here. +1 except I think Dru is about to tell us how the whale meat is chock full of toxins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I read in the hunting regs that in some GMUs where no wheeled access is allowed, Native Americans are allowed to use 4-runners in order to "preserve their traditional hunting lifestyle". I call bullshit on that. And I feel the same way about the whaling argument. If your argument is that you get to whale b/c it is part of your heritage, then you should have to do it the spirit of the way it was done during that time you are saying you honor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I read in the hunting regs that in some GMUs where no wheeled access is allowed, Native Americans are allowed to use 4-runners in order to "preserve their traditional hunting lifestyle". what if the people were driven from their original lands and thus have to get to a destination they never should have been forced to leave? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericb Posted November 16, 2007 Author Share Posted November 16, 2007 I read in the hunting regs that in some GMUs where no wheeled access is allowed, Native Americans are allowed to use 4-runners in order to "preserve their traditional hunting lifestyle". I call bullshit on that. And I feel the same way about the whaling argument. If your argument is that you get to whale b/c it is part of your heritage, then you should have to do it the spirit of the way it was done during that time you are saying you honor. You mean they didn't use a .557 and motor boats back in the day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 You mean they didn't use a .557 and motor boats back in the day? are they using the .557 to make it easier for them or to assuage the people who think it is inhumane and cruel to kill an animal the size of a whale in the "traditional" way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I have no interest in assuaging anyone's "sensibilities" who doesn't hunt but isn't vegan. As for the 'driven from their land" thing: didn't someone just post on the other thread that Native Amer.s didn't own land anyway? Just trying to rile you up on that one. I don't think there is any excuse for allowing unfair advantage to one group which ends up harming the land and ruining the experience for everyone else. Ever try to hunt where there are a bunch of 4x4s zinging around? Sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I have no interest in assuaging anyone's "sensibilities" who doesn't hunt but isn't vegan. As for the 'driven from their land" thing: didn't someone just post on the other thread that Native Amer.s didn't own land anyway? Just trying to rile you up on that one. I don't think there is any excuse for allowing unfair advantage to one group which ends up harming the land and ruining the experience for everyone else. Ever try to hunt where there are a bunch of 4x4s zinging around? Sucks. whether native americans owned the land or not, they lived next to hunting grounds. now they don't, and not necessarily by choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 You mean they didn't use a .557 and motor boats back in the day? are they using the .557 to make it easier for them or to assuage the people who think it is inhumane and cruel to kill an animal the size of a whale in the "traditional" way? And you can tell in the article that using a .557 didn't end up quickening the animal's death. Hunting is a skill. It has to be learned. The first large game I shot didn't die right away either. For people to expect that every kill is going to measure up to their ideals (which are usually not grounded in reality as they have never been hunting) is ignorant. A little education around this might be helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I have no interest in assuaging anyone's "sensibilities" who doesn't hunt but isn't vegan. As for the 'driven from their land" thing: didn't someone just post on the other thread that Native Amer.s didn't own land anyway? Just trying to rile you up on that one. I don't think there is any excuse for allowing unfair advantage to one group which ends up harming the land and ruining the experience for everyone else. Ever try to hunt where there are a bunch of 4x4s zinging around? Sucks. whether native americans owned the land or not, they lived next to hunting grounds. now they don't, and not necessarily by choice. WTF does that have to do with driving four wheelers to a kill? I don't give a shit where anyone used to live. We all share the limited hunting grounds now. Sorry about what happened in our past--it is shameful. But that doesn't mean you get to drive wherever the fuck you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 And what about non-native folk who've been displaced by development or whatever? Do they qualify for special rights? No. I only agree with one exception: Americans With Disabilities have the right to use motorized assistance in those areas. Anyone who can walk gets to walk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 WTF does that have to do with driving four wheelers to a kill? I don't give a shit where anyone used to live. We all share the limited hunting grounds now. Sorry about what happened in our past--it is shameful. But that doesn't mean you get to drive wherever the fuck you want. you are almost as feisty as me this week. you are focusing on the driving, what about the hunting? more profoundly they are allowed to hunt an animal whose killing is banned nearly world-wide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I am against killing whales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Hell, I even catch and release trout--but I am not against fishing for food. But I don't think anyone should be allowed to take anything that is suffering dwindling numbers and is not able to be managed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Hell, I even catch and release trout--but I am not against fishing for food. But I don't think anyone should be allowed to take anything that is suffering dwindling numbers and is not able to be managed. the whales they are killing are supposedly on the rebound / not endangered. and shit we're wiping out fish stocks in the oceans these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I believe it is not OK to kill whales no matter what your heritage is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Hell, I even catch and release trout--but I am not against fishing for food. But I don't think anyone should be allowed to take anything that is suffering dwindling numbers and is not able to be managed. the whales they are killing are supposedly on the rebound / not endangered. and shit we're wiping out fish stocks in the oceans these days. Whales cannot be managed like a herd of elk due to their large travel distances. So if killing them is allowed anywhere in the world, the whale numbers could not be controlled. Also, I don't think we know enough about the ocean and its balances to wipe out anything in it. But maybe I am mostly speaking for myself here as I do not know much about the waters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No. 13 Baby Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Nothing like the indignant white middle-class male on a good rant! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Speaking of which, I think that is another thing that bothers me. Somehow, people view Native Americans as having the "right" to hunt and everyone else has the "privilege" to hunt. I don't thing that is healthy. It is a privilege that everyone should have the same process to apply for, pay for, get approval for, and respect the limitations of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Speaking of which, I think that is another thing that bothers me. Somehow, people view Native Americans as having the "right" to hunt and everyone else has the "privilege" to hunt. I don't thing that is healthy. It is a privilege that everyone should have the same process to apply for, pay for, get approval for, and respect the limitations of. what about the right to own casinos? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 There is no longer any subsistence hunting of whales in the lower 48 - all remaining subsistence harvest in the US takes place in Alaskan waters. The Makah would be the lone exception if they are again granted the right to hunt. The bowhead whale hunt in the Beaufort and Chukchi Seas is the most well known subsistence hunt. The Beuafort Sea population of Bowheads is around 10-12,000 animals and increasing at about 3% per year. The Inupiats have undertaken decades of efforts to document population levels. The Int'l Whaling Comm'n allots them 50-60 whales/year, which are divided between the Spring and Fall hunt. The bowhead hunt is widely consisdered to be sustainable and well managed. Alaskan Natives also regularly hunt beluga whales - I don't know much about the hunt of other species. In the spring the Inupiats hunt from seal skin boats, powered by oars and use hand propelled harpoons with explosive tips. In the fall, the conditions in the Arctic Ocean force them to use 15-20' open cockpit aluminum boats with a single outboard motor. Whale meat makes up a huge portion of their annual diet, and the studies document dramatically increased health risks from conditions such as diabetes when Inupiats change from a subsistence diet. If you're interested, we've got up some information on offshore oil and threats to the subsistence hunt. You'll find some maps of the subsistence hunting grounds, pictures of the boats and a description of the whaling techiniques and information on threats posed to the subsistence hunt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I'll read that now. Thank you for the information, it is very interesting. I need to amend what I wrote earlier--I am not anti-subsistance hunting. Not against anyone (so far as I know). People need to feed themselves, and hunting is obviously a way I agree with to achieve this fundamental need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Whale meat = toxic waste. A great source of PCBs! The last whale the Makah hunted had to be disposed of at a Superfund site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 That is incredibly sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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