Free wood

[lancegranite]

Oh yeah, I bought one.

Anybody need a sawzall with no batteries?

[pope]

All the bolts in the world do not add up to a speck on the ass of some of these huge construction projects which happen in your parks, like the one at Beacon that just put a brand new concrete bridge and road in for the boat ramp at Beacon. Huge invasive project.

 

 

Every problem in this world can be dismissed by the existence of a larger problem? Does a larger pile of shit across the street make the pile under your shoe smell sweet? Remember, those who participate in climbing would be wise to protect and preserve the medium, and the spirit of adventure that have made climbing easy to distinguish from table tennis and yard darts....although that boundary is certainly more fuzzy than it used to be.

 

 

[kevbone]

 

Every problem in this world can be dismissed by the existence of a larger problem? Does a larger pile of shit across the street make the pile under your shoe smell sweet? Remember, those who participate in climbing would be wise to protect and preserve the medium, and the spirit of adventure that have made climbing easy to distinguish from table tennis and yard darts....although that boundary is certainly more fuzzy than it used to be.

 

 

The "spirit of adventure" is subjective my friend.....your north ridge of mt stuart is another persons five gallon bucket.

 

 

[markd]

what a bunch of mindless spray from people who have never been to the area.

 

raindawg and pope: where do you come up with your standards that you impose on other people? in reality, i agree with a lot of what you say; however, after a while it all sounds the same and it gets hard to read.

 

thanks to whomever is doing the trailwork. it's a thankless thing to do and i appreciate it.

 

[billcoe]

Concur Mark: I too find myself agreeing with Pope and Dwayner (Dawg) - but they see the world as too black and white. Dawg would chop every bolt at this place, for instance, which is crazy shit and his attitude makes me mental sometimes. If they were showing up on this site with a climbing TR or picture occasional it would be more bearable, but alas, all they can seem to do is interject the same sad dig ....and often in the strangest of places or oddest of times.

 

Link to the final word on bolting

For instance: here is something Dawg wrote which I agree with.

 

"The people who object most strongly to anything, I have found, are those who believe that there is only one way of thinking, and that way is their own."

 

It is true in this case. After all, you can see the plethora of natural pro available in this rock. But only a single bolt, those rapers of the environment, climbers, put in.

 

Come down and do the 2nd ascent Don. I'll yank the bolt I'm clipped before you go vertical for the next 100', and you'll be a pitch up from here, which this pic shows, if you want it. I'm serious.

 

But don't drive on a road to get here, cause that's a rape of the environment and a trashing of the publics right for the land to be left in it's natural state. After all, it's a big friggan swath that the road will take and f* up and thats our land.

 

 

So start walking buddy boy. It's your lead:

 

 

 

 

[kevbone]

what a bunch of mindless spray from people who have never been to the area.

 

 

So true.

[letsroll]

WOW....amazin how this thred gotz way off trak. Tanks to all dem peps whoz partisipated.

 

The discussion was just as good as that sentance.

[drater]

this thread is just another example why boldering and free soloing are the purist forms of climbing.

 

again.

[letsroll]

yes they are

[Off_White]

this thread is just another example why boldering and free soloing are the purist forms of climbing.

 

again.

 

No, those pads are so hard on our little friends in teh plant kingdom, and chalk has been known to cause cancer in teh state of California.

 

It is funny to see "boldering" and "pure" in the same sentence, but I guess thats V2.0 in action for you.

 

 

 

[kevbone]

 

It is funny to see "boldering" and "pure" in the same sentence,

 

 

Quote of the day.....

[drater]

right, because 12 more pages of unending philosophical bullshit regarding a completely self serving activity shows the inane contrivities of roped climbing.

 

boldering is simply pure, grab holds, go up, top out or fall.

 

if you don't use a pad, the plants don't cry.

[kevbone]

Yeah….but if continue this another 12 pages then that will be less time you have to kill the plants…..

[drater]

wtf ever...one afternoon in the employ of the feds, my crew and I torched 170,000 acres of Hells Canyon in an attempt to catch a fire...don't talk to me about boldering's impact on plants.

 

just as stupid a stance as bolts hurting the rock.

[billcoe]

wtf ever...one afternoon in the employ of the feds, my crew and I torched 170,000 acres of Hells Canyon in an attempt to catch a fire...don't talk to me about boldering's impact on plants.

 

just as stupid a stance as bolts hurting the rock.

 

Do Dawg and Pope know about this affront to the environment?

[kevbone]

No one knows because he is batdrater……night time fire starter.

[pope]

..just as stupid a stance as bolts hurting the rock.

 

That's never been the stance. Rocks can't be hurt. They don't feel.

 

Bolts hurt climbers. They turn us into pussies. They make climbing too easy. Plus they're ugly and alien to the mountaineering medium. Now, I know that sage MattP will gladly compare bolts to other "improvements" in climbing technology and remind us that, like bolts, these improvements met similar opposition initially. What he will avoid pointing out is that unlike dynamic ropes, sticky rubber, SLCD's, front points, etc. etc. etc......the choice to bolt completely changes the climbing experience for everybody, not just the party who decides to use them. Since good cragging is somewhat of a limited resource, the best choice is to restrain ourselves when applying bolts.

[mattp]

Pope: you have a problem with reading comprehension; I guess you don't teach English, huh? Yes, I used the word "improvements" and I was talking about bolts, but did you read my post? I didn't say what my "take" on modern practices may be, but I clearly didn't say that I see all bolting as an "improvement" and I wrote that the historical trend I noted might be read to support YOUR arguments in some respects.

 

I realize you want to stir the pot around here and make this a "bolt vs no-bolt" reality, but you fool only the uninformed - such as non-climbing land managers or novices who are interested in these topics but don't have the background to know what you are talking about. A climber of your vast experience and expertise surely is capable of more informative discussion.

[kevbone]

the choice to bolt completely changes the climbing experience for everybody, not just the party who decides to use them.

 

 

What ever dude......it is what you make of it.....you make a choice to be pissed about bolts....I dont

[pope]

Pope: you have a problem with reading comprehension; I guess you don't teach English, huh? Yes, I used the word "improvements" and I was talking about bolts, but did you read my post? I didn't say what my "take" on modern practices may be, but I clearly didn't say that I see all bolting as an "improvement" and I wrote that the historical trend I noted might be read to support YOUR arguments in some respects.

 

I realize you want to stir the pot around here and make this a "bolt vs no-bolt" reality, but you fool only the uninformed - such as non-climbing land managers or novices who are interested in these topics but don't have the background to know what you are talking about. A climber of your vast experience and expertise surely is capable of more informative discussion.

 

Here's the quote in question:

 

"Read a little history and you will find that since rock climbing emerged as a sport apart from mountain climbing there has been a general trend where each successive generation's improvements are criticized by the prior. Roped belaying was decried by some in the early 20th century, pitons in the 20's, aid climbing in the 50's, and even cams were said by some to be cheating when they came out in the '70's."

 

Here's what you did, MattP, which I think does illuminate your "take" on modern bolting practices (and if this doesn't do it, remember that only the uninformed novices and nonclimbing land managers are unaware of your activities that have contributed to the problem). In the italicized paragraph above, you entered into a discussion on bolting and brought up this supposed historical criticism of "improvements" in rock climbing, as if to put into historical perspective the current criticism of excessive bolt application. Clever subtext to readership: today's bolting critics are just afraid of anything new and their rants can be dismissed since they are clearly taking their place in history as a generation of nonadaptive, xenophobic fossils. By comparing bolting opponents to such "historical" critics of equipment improvements, you are necessarily comparing bolts to what have been considered legitimate improvements in climbing technology.

 

Also, it is not my intention to stir the pot. Not everybody vocally in opposition to your views is merely trying to create a disturbance. Furthermore I have never advocated a no-bolt approach to rock climbing, although it would be an improvement on the current state of the sport.

[billcoe]

Pope: you have a problem with reading comprehension; I guess you don't teach English, huh? Yes, I used the word "improvements" and I was talking about bolts, but did you read my post? I didn't say what my "take" on modern practices may be, but I clearly didn't say that I see all bolting as an "improvement" and I wrote that the historical trend I noted might be read to support YOUR arguments in some respects.

 

I realize you want to stir the pot around here and make this a "bolt vs no-bolt" reality, but you fool only the uninformed - such as non-climbing land managers or novices who are interested in these topics but don't have the background to know what you are talking about. A climber of your vast experience and expertise surely is capable of more informative discussion.

 

Here's the quote in question:

 

"Read a little history and you will find that since rock climbing emerged as a sport apart from mountain climbing there has been a general trend where each successive generation's improvements are criticized by the prior. Roped belaying was decried by some in the early 20th century, pitons in the 20's, aid climbing in the 50's, and even cams were said by some to be cheating when they came out in the '70's."

 

Here's what you did, MattP, which I think does illuminate your "take" on modern bolting practices (and if this doesn't do it, remember that only the uninformed novices and nonclimbing land managers are unaware of your activities that have contributed to the problem). In the italicized paragraph above, you entered into a discussion on bolting and brought up this supposed historical criticism of "improvements" in rock climbing, as if to put into historical perspective the current criticism of excessive bolt application. Clever subtext to readership: today's bolting critics are just afraid of anything new and their rants can be dismissed since they are clearly taking their place in history as a generation of nonadaptive, xenophobic fossils. By comparing bolting opponents to such "historical" critics of equipment improvements, you are necessarily comparing bolts to what have been considered legitimate improvements in climbing technology.

 

Also, it is not my intention to stir the pot. Not everybody vocally in opposition to your views is merely trying to create a disturbance. Furthermore I have never advocated a no-bolt approach to rock climbing, although it would be an improvement on the current state of the sport.

 

I have heard Don advocate no bolts, and you are very close to it.

 

So lets step back and get the historical perspective. Short synopsis: Royal Robbins was one of the earliest who postulated that with technology, humans could theoretically go anywhere. Since we climbed for the adventure, it only made sense for us to arbitrarily draw a line in the sand "for ourselves" on technology's use so as to maintain that spirit of adventure.

 

Somehow that has gotten twisted now by some jackasses to mean that use of bolts should be illegal.

 

Frankly, I climb at 2 parks occasionally. Beacon Rock State Park and Smith Rocks State Park.

 

Using your thinking, they should not be putting in pavement as that permanently leaves scars in the land in a major way. Nevermind that people who want to just drive to the park to have a picnic will all get screwed.

 

They should not put in water spigots LIKE THEY BOTH HAVE as the construction to do so permanently scars the land in a major way. Fu*k thirsty people, let them get water at their homes eh?

 

They should not put in campsites LIKE THEY BOTH HAVE as the construction to do so permanently scars the land in a major way. Fu*k the campers eh?

 

They should not put in trails LIKE THEY BOTH HAVE as the construction to do so permanently scars the land in a major way. Both places have hammered and pounded the crap out of the rock to make trails, in a major way. Of course that screws the hikers.

 

Nevermind that you can hardly see the bolts they are so small. Just another user group you want to get the shaft.

 

As far as that goes, by your thinking, roads should not be in place at all. Even the non-paved logging roads to your lil out of the way crags tear the holy hell out of the land. Well, when you stop living in a house or using wood in any way, or stop driving to your favorite climbing spot on that major pavement that permanently scarred and tore the holy hell out of the land, maybe we can talk about this.

 

Until then you're just another loudmouth hypocrite.

[billcoe]

In the spririt of camaraderie and in an effort to get the discussion back to rockclimbing and not what a bunch of Elmer Gantry F*uking loudmouth hypocrites some of you jackasses are: I have decided not to name the first rap bolted line I have scoped out "Squeeze job" or "Dawging it" (after Raindawg) after all. No, when the new big-assed Bosch rotohammer which I've nicknamed "the Dawg" arrives, the first route "The Dawg" hammers the holy hell out of and permanently scars will be named.............hold............drum roll........... hold...."Squeezing the Dawg". A more interesting name no doubt not the least of which is due to the sly sexually suggestive undertones in addition to the allegorical and alternative uses of that illiteration.

 

Interestingly enough and in a strange twist of twisted fate, this potential line lays smack in between the 2 pure lines which are sandwiched between bolted lines which I fa'ed last June (in this area being discussed on this thread) with NO BOLTS AT ALL, a full 2 months after some of the last group of new route putteruppers declared this area to be finished and totally climbed out.

 

I'll bring pictures. Prepare your teeth for the gnashing they will undoubtedly be engaged in. You've been warned.

 

Meantime, while you wait for this event to occur, would you just lighten up fer christsakes?

 

 

Ta ta

Bill

[billcoe]

BTW, I don't disagree that we should exercise good judgment in our use of all technology in climbing.

 

Pics of "Squeezing the Dawg" may demonstrate otherwise. I will admit I have not drawn a clear line in the sand myself and that line is changing. At this area here, I put up some early ground up gear only lines 25 or so years ago. It was dangerous and stupid and the routes have been lost to the sands of time and my bad memory.

 

The place languished until some of these pups showed up and on rappel, cleaned it off, and put in bolts... where or if needed. The effect is great from a climbing viewpoint with lost of variety, predominatly mixed gear and bolt lines, with some pure gear only lines and some pure bolt only lines as well.

 

Unfortunately this has drawn crowds, which usually causes bureaucrats to want to "manage" them. But the place IMO, despite the crowds, is better now than when it was first tripped over, and I was there for that too.

 

[kevbone]

Well said Bill....all of it....

 

What are you doing up so early? Shouldnt you be getting your sleep....

[drater]

Since good cragging is somewhat of a limited resource

 

Apparently you need a tour of the eastern washington gneiss belt. More good rock than you could not bolt in 5 lifetimes.

 

pm sargent_rock for the goods on a canyon with 400+ routes, all trad, no fixed anchors except some rap slings slung around the top of a freestanding tower.

 

might put you at peace with yourself and the world.