Gandolf's in PDX

[geoff]

Hello,

 

Anyone know the history / safety of the anchor bolts on this climb? They appear to be three that are hammered in.

 

Thanks.

[cycling_mike]

They seemed pretty standard to me last time I was up there, which was...a year or so ago. Why?

[geoff]

Just wondering.

 

The three bolts in question are different than those I am used to seeing. The two at the first belay and one at the second.

 

The bolts have big mushroom shaped heads that look like they were hammered in like a piton. Just interested if anyone knows when they were put in or what type of bolts they are.

 

Thanks.

 

 

[wayne]

Speaking of history,

Fun Fact: In the late 80s a tree growing out of the old base pillar was topped to open a new route. It ended up dying and next year the whole 75 foot tall monster block fell out, it went all the way to the park devastating everything below. Thereby creating the start you all enjoy today. The same thing happened on the left side of HGWall.

Next week on Fun Facts. The Clandestine Hydro- Pillarjack!

[ivan]

Speaking of history,

Fun Fact: In the late 80s a tree growing out of the old base pillar was topped to open a new route. It ended up dying and next year the whole 75 foot tall monster block fell out, it went all the way to the park devastating everything below. Thereby creating the start you all enjoy today. The same thing happened on the left side of HGWall.

Next week on Fun Facts. The Clandestine Hydro-Jack Pillarjack!

opdyke remembers this great "act of sacrilege," more or less his words, and swears he could never return to the sacred wall as a result of its defilement

[billcoe]

Nice bit of history Wayne. Damn that must have been loud! And Scary too.

 

I only know (vs like rumors I'd heard on the block-B-Gone thing that involved Wayne and Bob M. ) 2 interesting facts about Gandolfs.

 

When I first met Wayne1112, it was at on the other side of that cliff, he just walked up to us looking for a partner. Turned out, after some questioning back and forth to each other, I think Wayne said he was 14 years old then... and had already soloed the North Face at that point. So we climbed, no one else was around, this was in the days before there were lots of climbers. It's strange in that I vividly remember Wayne, but not the other person I was climbing with that day.

 

Certainly was damn strong even then.

 

The other thing I thought was interesting is that for @ 30 years - a sole knifeblade driven straight up into the roof protected the crux at Golums hang. One day Steve Stauch and I were out climbing somewhere and he laughing confessed to me that he was both shocked and surprised that it was still there. They'd immediately thought it was a particularly poor placement when Steve drove it up into the roof on the FA: and they expected that the next party or 2 would have been smart enough to just replace the pin with a bolt so as not to put their lives at risk. But everyone just clipped it and went. Thing had to have seen, and held, a lot of falls.

 

Does anyone know did the knifeblade meet it's demise anyway? Did it finally fail on a fall or did someone make a proactive move?

 

Geoff, I don't remember these bolts specifically, but they sound like the Rawl Drive mushroom head splitshank construction bolts. Rawl is now Powers, they still sell the things. Link to Powers Fasteners Typically the 1/4"ers were @ 1-1/2 inches deep, and brand new, in ideal conditions, could hold almost 2000 lbs. The folks at the Rawl company, when they found out what we used them for, were horrified. Not long after climbers wised up and changed over to 3/8 wedge anchors. You still see them places, especially in like Yosemite. Somethings they are threaded and look like a wedge anchor, but those appear to not be made anymore. They had the benefit of being fast, relativly strong and cheap. Hand drilling a 1/4" hole 1-1/2 deep while balanced on a tiny stance 30' out on lead while your calves are burning and you're about to grease off is SIGNIFICANTLY easier than a 3/8 x 3" hole.

 

 

[wayne]

Speaking of history,

Fun Fact: In the late 80s a tree growing out of the old base pillar was topped to open a new route. It ended up dying and next year the whole 75 foot tall monster block fell out, it went all the way to the park devastating everything below. Thereby creating the start you all enjoy today. The same thing happened on the left side of HGWall.

Next week on Fun Facts. The Clandestine Hydro-Jack Pillarjack!

opdyke remembers this great "act of sacrilege," more or less his words, and swears he could never return to the sacred wall as a result of its defilement

 

Damn, sorry, Apologies to all people and Ma Nature herself

 

Sorry too fro hijacking your thread, Most of Brots is updated.Sucks to hear they were jacked in < Too small/worn bit> Bob used to do that.

[billcoe]

Wayne, that was the best post of the day. Don't be sorry!

 

BTW, with the freeze thaw cycle around the east county area, that thing would have loosened over time.....

 

You might have saved a life. Or several. Who can judge such things?

[wayne]

Maybe we should take this to sensitivo?

[billcoe]

Maybe we should take this to sensitivo?

 

 

 

 

No way, you can't say shit or fuck over there! As in, "we knocked that fucker over it's too late to give a shit now.... "

 

 

Hell, the life you saved may have even been mine!

[kevbone]

I have been meaning to replace all the anchors on that face....sorry....those mushroom looking bolts suck balls and need to go....the are all loose.

 

Jim is always telling me "dont clean too much" and reminds me of what happened on that route. What Wayne decribed above.

[JosephH]

Don't underestimate those split-shanks! In replacing anchors out at Beacon I tried to cut one of those babies - it destroyed two brand new saw blades with nary a nick in the sucker - and one of those same saw blades will cut Powers 1/2", 5-piece bolts all day long like so many cheese sticks. The damn thing is still there. The issue with these things when you run across them isn't so much the split-shanks themselves as the decaying, homemade hanger that's on them. If it were the bolts alone I'd trust them anytime.

[kevbone]

Don't underestimate those split-shanks! In replacing anchors out at Beacon I tried to cut one of those babies - it destroyed two brand new saw blades with nary a nick in the sucker - and one of those same saw blades will cut Powers 1/2", 5-piece bolts all day long like so many cheese sticks. The damn thing is still there. The issue with these things when you run across them isn't so much the split-shanks themselves as the decaying, homemade hanger that's on them. If it were the bolts alone I'd trust them anytime.

 

Who is yanking them out? Not me....I would just place a better Anchor next to it?

[billcoe]

 

Who is yanking them out? Not me....I would just place a better Anchor next to it?

 

Kevin: tThe correct way to replace 1/4 split shanks is to yank them out with a modified Lost Arrow and use the hole for the next 3/8 bolt after you drill it out.

 

Usually the position of the old bolt is perfect, why just leave rusting trash in the rock unless it's historic. (Like JH left Dean Caldwell and Kim Schmitzs bolts alone at Beacon and just drilled new. )

[kevbone]

 

Who is yanking them out? Not me....I would just place a better Anchor next to it?

 

Kevin: tThe correct way to replace 1/4 split shanks is to yank them out with a modified Lost Arrow and use the hole for the next 3/8 bolt after you drill it out.

 

Usually the position of the old bolt is perfect, why just leave rusting trash in the rock unless it's historic. (Like JH left Dean Caldwell and Kim Schmitzs bolts alone at Beacon and just drilled new. )

 

Will you define “historic”? To me anything more than 10 years old that is questionable falls in that category.

[billcoe]

 

Will you define “historic”?

 

No. You sound like you are trying to pick a fight. Maybe I'm misreading your words.

_______________________________________________________

 

To me anything more than 10 years old that is questionable falls in that category.

 

 

 

Not me. About a week ago Joseph and I tried a new route/pitch (which he later got), there was a very rusty 3/8" wedge anchor which I had hand drilled on lead well over 20 years ago on an early reconnoiter which I had forgotten about. Looking at it, it's an OK stance ond location, not the best. I was wondering if the foothold I'd been standing on had snapped off.

 

-But-

 

That bolt is significantly older than 10 years old. That bolt is very rusty (stainless hanger though). That bolt is shit. That bolt is not historic.

 

Just because I am too lazy to replace it doesn't mean that I won't

 

A) Clip it.

B) Not thank the person who replaces it.

 

Now realize that while I'm belaying JH on this route, I'm a pitch off the deck on an existing route clipped to 2 of his new replacement bolts which are located 8" below what is now my cut off uncammoflaged studs of 2 stainless bolts I had installed and which should have been perfect before they got sawed off. Sawed most likly by JH when he put in the new stuff.

 

But why give him any grief over it or even bring it up? He worked his ass off out there. He probably had a reason.

 

I know that the rangers wanted the chains Dave had put on my bolts out there like 8 years ago gone. Maybe the threads were galled?

 

-again-

 

Why give him any grief over it? He worked his ass off out there. I think there was plenty of opprotunity FOR ANY AND FOR ALL OF US to get involved early on and mention that "this bolt or that bolt" was historic.

 

To me, the origonal 1/4 bolts at the end of P2 which were up on the slab (not on the ledge like the current location) which were put in by the FAers on the SE corner should have been left. They were truely historic. I have not given Jim any grief about it because they are way off what is the current route, and n00bs would have got lost, wandered up that way, and gotten screwed. But they were put in by some bold dudes on the first technical climbing route at Beacon, and no one even knows that the route path was changed now. Maybe even you don't know this.

 

I'll bet you dollars to donuts if Steve read this thread with anybodies suggestion that Danny and his old 1/4" bolts on Gandolf's were "historic" he'd be laughing his ass off.

[billcoe]

BTW Kev, best idea yet: if you feel strongly about the Gandolf's bolts, then you probably should get up there soon and fix it the way you want to see it get done.

 

Otherwise, it's gonna be what it's gonna be, and someone might pull them as they put in the new.

[kevbone]

 

 

No. You sound like you are trying to pick a fight. Maybe I'm misreading your words.

 

I am not trying to pick a fight….especially with JH. But he did state to leave historic bolts alone…..so I have to ask “What is historic”? Sounds like we might have a difference of opinion about it……that’s ok.

 

To me anything more than 10 years old that is questionable falls in that category.

 

Then I defined “historic” to the best of my personal knowledge.

 

 

That bolt is significantly older than 10 years old. That bolt is very rusty (stainless hanger though). That bolt is shit. That bolt is not historic.

 

Why do you say this….it is too historic…..I personally think time is the only true standard in which to judge “historic”.

 

 

 

I'll bet you dollars to donuts if Steve read this thread with anybodies suggestion that Danny and his old 1/4" bolts on Gandolf's were "historic" he'd be laughing his ass off.

 

I don’t recall saying those particular bolts are historic! I just stated I would not try to remove them……because I am too lazy……

 

[JosephH]

He probably had a reason.

 

Primarily to establish known replacement dates for all the anchors so there won't be question about how old they are in the future (and hey, both the old and new bolts are technically yours!). That, and to have the heavier, directly rappable hangers. Folks may not agree, but that was the reasoning.

 

I have two of the modified Lost Arrow "tuning forks" if anyone does want to borrow them to remove old buttonhead split-shanks.

[billcoe]

I don’t recall saying those particular bolts are historic! I just stated I would not try to remove them……because I am too lazy……

 

Hey, thats my line!

 

Actually, I like that Joseph left various old historic mank out there at some places so that the kids can stare in fear and wonderment at that crap as they clip the new bomber 3/8" he put in.

 

One man's trash is often another mans interesting classic history. I have an original bolt off of the East Buttress of Middle Cathedral rock bolt ladder in my chalk bag I've been carrying there for about 20 years.

 

Got the bolt and the hanger. Wonder how many pitches they've seen?

[kevbone]

Hey, thats my line!

 

 

Who's line is it anyway?

[hemp22]

Bill, Wayne, et. al. - the historic anecdotes are great - keep em coming.

 

to Geoff & Kevbone, I've never felt too sketchy about those bolts on Gandalf's, but I do agree that they're not ideal. But if anyone updates them, please try to do a clean job & replace them as opposed to adding new ones. I think there are already some old holes & sawed off bolts up there - no need to add more mess.

I don't have gear for bolting but would be glad to lend a hand to anyone who wants to update some of the manky stuff out there.

[billcoe]

I don't have gear for bolting but would be glad to lend a hand to anyone who wants to update some of the manky stuff out there.

 

...and you call yourself a climber... NO BOLTING CRAP! Jeff.......

 

I'll loan you a hand drill if you are feeling sporting and want to re-create that classic feel :-0

[kevbone]

Maybe on one the upcoming weekends we can all go out and a replace that first anchor. I have not climbing GG in a couple of years and would love to get on it…..I have all the bolting equipment needed. Screw the hand drill…….might as well ride your horse to the crag.

[billcoe]