Popes Realization

[RuMR]

MODS...PUT THIS BACK IN THE ROCK CLIMBING FORUM, DAMMIT!

[kevbone]

MODS...PUT THIS BACK IN THE ROCK CLIMBING FORUM, DAMMIT!

 

I dont know Ru.....now we can unleash the insults. You know Rain was holding back with the wise crack picture responses that are so entertaining.

[RuMR]

hey kevbeenboned...ask dwayner about the ongoing "challenge/bet"...

 

There is nothing "on-going" and "the bet" was childish. Here's the story which directly relates:

 

A few years ago, there was a discussion about hang-dogging in which I described it as "siege climbing". The old school philosophy is that you climb from the bottom up, and if you fell, you were lowered to the ground and started over, or you trained on lower grades and worked your abilities higher until you were good enough to address the climb on its own terms.

Hang-dogging...hanging off your gear to rest, falling repeatedly while rehearsing the moves, was considered weak free-climbing, essentially aid, and bogus. It demonstrated that you weren't ready. So let's say the climb is 5.13, and someone thrashes their way up this thing after weeks of hang-dogging and rehearsal and than pulls the rope and "red-points" it. Is this person really a 5.13 climber versus someone who has worked their abilities to the point where they can actually lead it on-site?

 

An analogous tradition can be seen in the expedition vs. alpine tradition in mountaineering where alpine-style climbing is considered a stylistically superior means of obtaining a summit. Reinhold Messner epitomized this by advocating and demonstrating the concept of climbing the mountain by fair means, not beating/sieging it into submission.

 

I also made the analogy on cc.com about a piano; something to the affect of: You may not be able to play the piano today but rehearse it enough and you'll be able to play a Beethoven sonata. This, by the way, does not mean that you have the same skill level of someone who has worked up their skill level to the point where new music can be set in front of them and they can play through a sonata without falling all over themselves.

 

I made the comment that I felt that nearly any climber with the dedication could, using the present rules of sport climbing, pull off a 5.13 if they were allowed to rehearse the moves endlessly into submission. It might take them months or a year or whatever, but put up rules like that, and it opens the door to all kinds of faux-accomplishments. I picked 5.13 because a lot of folks see that as a BIG NUMBER! and it seems to be a usual number for when the on-sight leading often ends and the sieging begins. Some folks chimed in saying 5.13 wasn't such a big deal anymore....it's what 5.12 was 20 years ago or 5.11 25 years ago. They're all over the place now...Whatever, I was making a theoretical statement apparently lost on many.

 

Then the usual cc.com taunts began, and a few of the usual and predictable blow-hards came out with frat-boy challenges to collect a bet that Dwayner couldn't possibly climb any kind of 5.13 no longer how he tried. It was utterly childish. One major moderator on this site told me that it would be impossible for me (to which I replied that I hope he doesn't spread his crappy attitude to children). The school-yard buddies delivered their usual lame clichés: "put your money where..." and my award for the most pathetic of all time: "don't cash a check your *ss can't deliver"

Believe me, if I had a convenient crag nearby, the interest and inspiration, and importantly, the time (none of which I have), it would be very satisfying to engage in such a challenge myself....it's not an excuse...it's reality...(on the other hand, I don't have an inclination to respond to juvenile bets, but if I ever do, it will be on my own time and terms). Regardless, my concept still stands. Perhaps someone with an abundance of the factors that thwart me can prove me correct.

 

Now wasn't that fascinating?

 

Hi Dwayner. How have you been? Long time no speak.

 

ok enough chit-chat.

 

It's easy to say "Oh I could do that." I know, because I do it all the time. It's a confidence I have, but the time eventually comes when I step on to that which I have almost blithely dismissed, and thank goodness occasionally get my ass kicked. This is good for me! It smacks me of my arrogance! It lets me know that I need to try if I want to do something, and that nothing is given until it is actually accomplished, and also takes me to what I love about climbing: figuring stuff out.

 

Let me re-state that: until one has climbed something quite specific, well, they haven't climbed it. Rather self-evident, yes? No amount of rationalization, equivocation, explanation, prognostication, hubris, or ventriloquism can change this fact.

You should know this: before that dinosaur bone is in your hand, it isn't in your hand, and you don't know whether or not you will find it. Perhaps you have a good idea that a specific location might contain dinosaur bones and eggs and mummies and stuff, but since you haven't climbed even a 5.12, what makes you think you will find a mummy in your closet?

 

Until you actually step out from behind your excuses and attempt that which you so arrogantly dismiss, you will be nothing but an archaeologist lost in your closet.

 

Did you know that Andres Segovia spent most of his time practicing scales and etudes? Very simple stuff, rehearsing and rehearsing. Many artists do this. Personally I'm more pulled by the spirit of things and not just the mastery, but I admire mastery also.

 

You, Mister Don, need to be less arrogant and climb more, instead of always complaining about the state of climbing.

OMFG...so brilliant...damn...

 

Fascinating how liberal we've become with that adjective. Guess you have to consider the readership. Anyway, a number of our more annoying participants have echoed the notion that it is not appropriate to criticize an activity unless one has participated, especially if the activity required discipline and focus. In some cases this might be good advice, but in this particular situation there is an important consideration that has been conveniently ignored within this thread. I'll provide an analogous example. Suppose a professional baseball player is in the hunt for a home-run title and he finds that the players leading the race are injecting performance enhancing drugs. He thinks this is unethical and refuses to participate, yet knows without the drugs he probably won't be competitive. Does he have a right to denounce something he feels is not only poor style but is seriously damaging the integrity of a game he loves? I think he does, but ONLY if he takes the moral high ground and refuses to particpate in doping.

 

OK kids, you draw the parallels here. If you can't figure it out, perhaps you could PM that brilliant Sexy Mocha guy for the answers.

there's a subtle difference from what you THINK I am saying and what i am ACTUALLY saying.

 

it goes like this:

DWAYNER SAY: If "i" resort to these tactics, then "i" can climb 5.13

SPARKY SAY: No, you can't...prove it

 

If it had transpired like this (it unfortunately didn't, so moot point, but you would have earned it):

DWAYNER SAY: He used unfair tactics and techniques, it doesn't impress me.

SPARKY SAY: Hmmmm...it would be much more difficult and impressive if so-and-so-big-name had done 5.whatever from the ground up on natural gear.

 

See the subtle difference? I just don't think don can climb that level or he'd have done it by now...CUE DON ...please, come storming in here, saying "You know nothin about me...i can do it but i don't want to"...

[olyclimber]

 

[sexual_chocolate]

Unless I hear otherwise, I'll assume you're a little out of your league on the topic of doing Brass Balls "leashless" and you probably shouldn't even start this conversation. I did it unroped after leading it several times, but there are important differences between this kind of rehearsal and what typically goes into climbing 5.13 these days.

 

1. In my rehearsal, I never fell, hung or aided.

 

2. In my rehearsal, I never left a mess behind.

 

3. For my performance, one could argue that rehearsal was just a little more important. There was a little bit more than a pink-point in the balance.

 

Finally, you'll read (in this thread, I believe) that I don't have a big problem with rehearsing, if that's what people find entertaining. If it's important to you to climb the next BIG NUMBER and you've got the time and desire to rehearse the snot out of something, feel free. But Dwayner's right in suggesting that this approach to climbing is what has trivialized 5.13 and that a climber who can barely manage a 5.12a flash could probably pink-point a 5.13. Thus, large numbers of anonymous climbers are doing it (maybe even Kevbone has managed this).

 

So, no problem with the style of hangdogging. It's not for me, but whatever. I'll just say that when you're bragging about your BIG NUMBERS, remember that you shouldn't trick yourself into thinking you can really climb that stuff. Also, make an extra effort not to leave a mess when you're done.

 

Sakes alive! Where does one even begin?

 

1. I hope you never fell, hung, or aided, since it's a friggin' 10b! It would have been a bit more bold if you had chosen a grade that you actually might have trouble with! (since you're into hardman action figure worship etc.)

 

2. So you didn't use chalk? You know, on those overhangs, it rarely gets washed out completely in the rain. Plus I heard you squeezed one at the crux; if that isn't a mess, I don't know what is.

 

3. one could argue, but that would be silly, wouldn't it?

 

As far as being "out of (my) league": I'm not bragging, nor am I much of a solo afficionado, but I've hopped on a few things before sans rope, including Orbit onsite (scary), St. Vitus Dance 15 years after doing it (11a or so, and no you don't want to fall, and it felt like an onsite), and various other climbs onsite to 11a. No rehearsal! So I'm probably not out of my league when entering into a conversation with Mr. Rehearsal about these things....(btw, this information is NOT meant to one-up you; soloing for me is kinda personal, but when you make these silly Mr. Football ego claims, it kinda gets to me....)

 

What else? Oh "trivialized 5.13". Should 5.13 remain on your ancient pedestal to be worshipped for all of eternity? Are you sore that kids and grandmas climb the grade, yet you and dwayner never have? I don't get it....

 

I'll just say that when you're bragging about your BIG NUMBERS, remember that you shouldn't trick yourself into thinking you can really climb that stuff.

 

Who's bragging? The only "bragging" I heard was your solo bragging (which I thought was originally kinda fun); plus, what is the term for the equation x=x? Reflexive something or another? We can argue if this can ever be true; I personally think that only nominally can it be true, and beyond signifier, it loses all meaning, but in this case, if one climbs a 5.13 (your mythic number) then by definition, that person now can climb 5.13! I don't know what sort of nonsense you are talking about above. Of course it doesn't mean they cn climb all 5.13's at that point in time (or ever), but they can climb "5.13" since they just did!

 

Silly Mr. Rehearsal!

[RuMR]

Unless I hear otherwise, I'll assume you're a little out of your league on the topic of doing Brass Balls "leashless" and you probably shouldn't even start this conversation. I did it unroped after leading it several times, but there are important differences between this kind of rehearsal and what typically goes into climbing 5.13 these days.

 

1. In my rehearsal, I never fell, hung or aided.

 

2. In my rehearsal, I never left a mess behind.

 

3. For my performance, one could argue that rehearsal was just a little more important. There was a little bit more than a pink-point in the balance.

 

Finally, you'll read (in this thread, I believe) that I don't have a big problem with rehearsing, if that's what people find entertaining. If it's important to you to climb the next BIG NUMBER and you've got the time and desire to rehearse the snot out of something, feel free. But Dwayner's right in suggesting that this approach to climbing is what has trivialized 5.13 and that a climber who can barely manage a 5.12a flash could probably pink-point a 5.13. Thus, large numbers of anonymous climbers are doing it (maybe even Kevbone has managed this).

 

So, no problem with the style of hangdogging. It's not for me, but whatever. I'll just say that when you're bragging about your BIG NUMBERS, remember that you shouldn't trick yourself into thinking you can really climb that stuff. Also, make an extra effort not to leave a mess when you're done.

 

Sakes alive! Where does one even begin?

 

1. I hope you never fell, hung, or aided, since it's a friggin' 10b! It would have been a bit more bold if you had chosen a grade that you actually might have trouble with! (since you're into hardman action figure worship etc.)

 

2. So you didn't use chalk? You know, on those overhangs, it rarely gets washed out completely in the rain. Plus I heard you squeezed one at the crux; if that isn't a mess, I don't know what is.

 

3. one could argue, but that would be silly, wouldn't it?

 

As far as being "out of (my) league": I'm not bragging, nor am I much of a solo afficionado, but I've hopped on a few things before sans rope, including Orbit onsite (scary), St. Vitus Dance 15 years after doing it (11a or so, and no you don't want to fall, and it felt like an onsite), and various other climbs onsite to 11a. No rehearsal! So I'm probably not out of my league when entering into a conversation with Mr. Rehearsal about these things....(btw, this information is NOT meant to one-up you; soloing for me is kinda personal, but when you make these silly Mr. Football ego claims, it kinda gets to me....)

 

What else? Oh "trivialized 5.13". Should 5.13 remain on your ancient pedestal to be worshipped for all of eternity? Are you sore that kids and grandmas climb the grade, yet you and dwayner never have? I don't get it....

 

I'll just say that when you're bragging about your BIG NUMBERS, remember that you shouldn't trick yourself into thinking you can really climb that stuff.

 

Who's bragging? The only "bragging" I heard was your solo bragging (which I thought was originally kinda fun); plus, what is the term for the equation x=x? Reflexive something or another? We can argue if this can ever be true; I personally think that only nominally can it be true, and beyond signifier, it loses all meaning, but in this case, if one climbs a 5.13 (your mythic number) then by definition, that person now can climb 5.13! I don't know what sort of nonsense you are talking about above. Of course it doesn't mean they cn climb all 5.13's at that point in time (or ever), but they can climb "5.13" since they just did!

 

Silly Mr. Rehearsal!

hmmm...hey poop...how does the verbal equivalent of a double barrel of buckshot to the face feel?

[kevbone]

Unless I hear otherwise, I'll assume you're a little out of your league on the topic of doing Brass Balls "leashless" and you probably shouldn't even start this conversation. I did it unroped after leading it several times, but there are important differences between this kind of rehearsal and what typically goes into climbing 5.13 these days.

 

1. In my rehearsal, I never fell, hung or aided.

 

2. In my rehearsal, I never left a mess behind.

 

3. For my performance, one could argue that rehearsal was just a little more important. There was a little bit more than a pink-point in the balance.

 

Finally, you'll read (in this thread, I believe) that I don't have a big problem with rehearsing, if that's what people find entertaining. If it's important to you to climb the next BIG NUMBER and you've got the time and desire to rehearse the snot out of something, feel free. But Dwayner's right in suggesting that this approach to climbing is what has trivialized 5.13 and that a climber who can barely manage a 5.12a flash could probably pink-point a 5.13. Thus, large numbers of anonymous climbers are doing it (maybe even Kevbone has managed this).

 

So, no problem with the style of hangdogging. It's not for me, but whatever. I'll just say that when you're bragging about your BIG NUMBERS, remember that you shouldn't trick yourself into thinking you can really climb that stuff. Also, make an extra effort not to leave a mess when you're done.

 

Sakes alive! Where does one even begin?

 

1. I hope you never fell, hung, or aided, since it's a friggin' 10b! It would have been a bit more bold if you had chosen a grade that you actually might have trouble with! (since you're into hardman action figure worship etc.)

 

2. So you didn't use chalk? You know, on those overhangs, it rarely gets washed out completely in the rain. Plus I heard you squeezed one at the crux; if that isn't a mess, I don't know what is.

 

3. one could argue, but that would be silly, wouldn't it?

 

As far as being "out of (my) league": I'm not bragging, nor am I much of a solo afficionado, but I've hopped on a few things before sans rope, including Orbit onsite (scary), St. Vitus Dance 15 years after doing it (11a or so, and no you don't want to fall, and it felt like an onsite), and various other climbs onsite to 11a. No rehearsal! So I'm probably not out of my league when entering into a conversation with Mr. Rehearsal about these things....(btw, this information is NOT meant to one-up you; soloing for me is kinda personal, but when you make these silly Mr. Football ego claims, it kinda gets to me....)

 

What else? Oh "trivialized 5.13". Should 5.13 remain on your ancient pedestal to be worshipped for all of eternity? Are you sore that kids and grandmas climb the grade, yet you and dwayner never have? I don't get it....

 

I'll just say that when you're bragging about your BIG NUMBERS, remember that you shouldn't trick yourself into thinking you can really climb that stuff.

 

Who's bragging? The only "bragging" I heard was your solo bragging (which I thought was originally kinda fun); plus, what is the term for the equation x=x? Reflexive something or another? We can argue if this can ever be true; I personally think that only nominally can it be true, and beyond signifier, it loses all meaning, but in this case, if one climbs a 5.13 (your mythic number) then by definition, that person now can climb 5.13! I don't know what sort of nonsense you are talking about above. Of course it doesn't mean they cn climb all 5.13's at that point in time (or ever), but they can climb "5.13" since they just did!

 

Silly Mr. Rehearsal!

 

 

[kevbone]

Can someone rename this tread "Popes realization"?

[RuMR]

Can someone rename this tread "Popes realization"?

done

[kevbone]

Can someone rename this tread "Popes realization"?

done

 

Hee hee

[SmallShoes]

So pope, did you rehearse Brass Balls before you soloed it? heh.

 

Or did you pull out your "brass balls" and send onsight?

 

Is this one of those activities that you have no right to comment on because you haven't done it yourself?

 

It would seem to me that they are merely asking questions not commenting. More specifically, they are holding you to your own standards - you come out against rehearsal (i.e. it's "siege" climbing) and now they are trying to make you out as a hypocrite. Not that any of this really matters mind you.

[kevbone]

Not that any of this really matters mind you.

 

So true.....we should all meet for beers sometime and laugh about this.

[SmallShoes]

Can someone rename this tread "Popes realization"?

done

 

Hee hee

 

Way to bring this thread down to the sophomoric level. Is there even a point to this anymore?

[RuMR]

there was never a point...merely a pissing contest...for me anyway...

 

 

what was your point?

[sexual_chocolate]

Can someone rename this tread "Popes realization"?

done

 

Hee hee

 

Way to bring this thread down to the sophomoric level. Is there even a point to this anymore?

 

oh come on man, was there ever? i think you're the one being sophomoric here, and yes i'd love a beer, as long as it's a Kaliber.

[pope]

So pope, did you rehearse Brass Balls before you soloed it? heh.

 

Or did you pull out your "brass balls" and send onsight?

 

Is this one of those activities that you have no right to comment on because you haven't done it yourself?

 

So pope, did you go and rehearse it? jeez, what poor form. it's unfortunate we are in a public forum and your buddy dwayner will see what you've been up to, you know, rehearsal and all. pfft.

 

Unless I hear otherwise, I'll assume you're a little out of your league on the topic of doing Brass Balls "leashless" and you probably shouldn't even start this conversation. I did it unroped after leading it several times, but there are important differences between this kind of rehearsal and what typically goes into climbing 5.13 these days.

 

1. In my rehearsal, I never fell, hung or aided.

 

2. In my rehearsal, I never left a mess behind.

 

3. For my performance, one could argue that rehearsal was just a little more important. There was a little bit more than a pink-point in the balance.

 

Finally, you'll read (in this thread, I believe) that I don't have a big problem with rehearsing, if that's what people find entertaining. If it's important to you to climb the next BIG NUMBER and you've got the time and desire to rehearse the snot out of something, feel free. But Dwayner's right in suggesting that this approach to climbing is what has trivialized 5.13 and that a climber who can barely manage a 5.12a flash could probably pink-point a 5.13. Thus, large numbers of anonymous climbers are doing it (maybe even Kevbone has managed this).

 

So, no problem with the style of hangdogging. It's not for me, but whatever. I'll just say that when you're bragging about your BIG NUMBERS, remember that you shouldn't trick yourself into thinking you can really climb that stuff. Also, make an extra effort not to leave a mess when you're done.

so i guess you could say you aren't really a 5.10 soloist by your line of logic, eh?

 

I did a couple of 5.10 climbs solo without any experience or beta, but generally I wouldn't go after something that hard w/o a rope, for several reasons. For one, I didn't climb too many grades harder than that with a rope (I rarely fell on 5.11 but wasn't going after 5.12). Another reason is variability in ratings. I once got kind of "stuck" half way up a 5.9 in the City of Rocks. It was harder than any of the 5.11 climbs I'd done (first day, first visit). After surviving that, I looked up the climb in the guide. Most of the 5.11 climbs I did that seemed easy were relatively new. The 5.9 that nearly killed me was put up in the 1970's.

 

Anyway, most considered Bachar to be a competent 5.11 solo climber but he rarely soloed that grade without rehearsal.

[sexual_chocolate]

ok guys, it's been fun.

 

see ya in a couple of months!

[pope]

Plus I heard you squeezed one at the crux; if that isn't a mess, I don't know what is.

 

I'll bet it's still up there waiting for you!

 

 

 

I'm not bragging, nor am I much of a solo afficionado, but I've hopped on a few things before sans rope, including Orbit onsite (scary), St. Vitus Dance 15 years after doing it (11a or so, and no you don't want to fall, and it felt like an onsite)

 

Is that the climb in Squamish? Ain't that 5.9? BTW I remember in a private message you told me about soloing Orbit, when boasting about your solo accomplishments, but you never brought up soloing 5.11a climbs. This must be a recent development!

 

What else? Oh "trivialized 5.13". Should 5.13 remain on your ancient pedestal to be worshipped for all of eternity? Are you sore that kids and grandmas climb the grade, yet you and dwayner never have? I don't get it....

 

Did a 12d top-rope flash, so I guess I could probably clip a rope into some quickdraws on a 13a after 3 months of pissing my life away.

 

...what is the term for the equation x=x? Reflexive something or another? We can argue if this can ever be true; I personally think that only nominally can it be true, and beyond signifier, it loses all meaning, but in this case, if one climbs a 5.13 (your mythic number) then by definition, that person now can climb 5.13! I don't know what sort of nonsense you are talking about above. Of course it doesn't mean they cn climb all 5.13's at that point in time (or ever), but they can climb "5.13" since they just did!

 

Silly Mr. Rehearsal!

 

Not sure where you're going with your mathemagical argument. My point is that unless one is able to climb grade X in a variety of locations on unfamiliar routes and with few falls, one doesn't climb grade X.

[joblo7]

some of this crap comes down to honesty vs self deception.

 

i.e . some rich mf who gets pulled up everest and feels for one second that he is

messner's buddy .

 

or. the equivalent in rock, some guy who spends weeks rehearsing the moves of a

5.13 on the rope and SAYS he climbs at that grade.(all do)

 

red? pink? wtf. can you CLIMB the mf. alone. few can and that is how it should remain.

 

if we remove the posing, and are honest, THEN, the accomplishement is what it is.

[joblo7]

Plus I heard you squeezed one at the crux; if that

 

Silly Mr. Rehearsal!

 

Not sure where you're going with your mathemagical argument. My point is that unless one is able to climb grade X in a variety of locations on unfamiliar routes and with few falls, one doesn't climb grade X.

 

SIMPLY PUT. YEAH!!!

[RuMR]

no not all who have redpointed something claim to climb at their redpoint level...

 

just about everyone i know who has pounded a route of a certain grade is pretty damn honest about how hard they worked to get that route done with no falls...no posing at all...pretty honest

 

I'm not sure who you hang out with, but its not the crowd that i do...

 

I'm the first to admit i can't climb onsight anywhere near what i can get my fat ass up with a lot of rehersal...never claimed to be a 5.whatever climber...only claimed to have done what i've done with a lot of work...

 

now toddle off and go lose some more weight...

Edited August 3, 2007 by RuMR

[joblo7]

yessssssss sir!!!

 

just seems like posing is epidemic among pups, anyway.

i am glad to see you are perfectly honest like i am. pheeeew!

i aint as fat as i once was.........

 

btw, i can run green lake under 19 now. and next time i visit sea i will break 17, (allah/god/HIM/el senor willing)

 

i could kick yo ass at altitude and you mine on rock (i guess)

 

I NEED TO GO CLIMBING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

[RuMR]

you could most likely kick my ass on rock these days too...

[kevbone]

So on a recap....what did we decide on this thread?

[Raindawg]

So on a recap....what did we decide on this thread?

 

The recap is:

a) you once again understood nothing;

b) you once again added nothing of substance.