what is the point of chopping bolts?

[pope]

Bring the hilti-armed newbie hordes grid-bolting line after line and you've drifted into the realm of fantasy. This is not a problem. This is not even a potential problem worth worrying about.

 

What? Never been to Vantage?

 

I seem to recall names like Yoder, Pogue, Windham, Massey, Kerns, Collum, etc associated with the bolted lines out there. Don't think these folks fall into the category we're discussing here.

 

Two of the guys you mentioned have either retro-bolted traditional lines or squeezed in sport routes between classic climbs at Castle Rock of all places. I believe those routes remain erased. Didn't that Windham guy put up a controversial alpine sport climb in a wilderness area? Is that your idea of a role model? I had lunch with a guy who is responsible for rap bolting mixed climbs locally, and according to him, one of the guys in your list has found a "secret crag" where he has bolted perfectly protectable, splitter finger cracks....just because he can. One of the guys you mention used to be my steady partner (climbing partner). He was drilling bolts when he was still learning his knots.

[sk]

duh...

 

the comment was in response to muff's drivel about everything being gridbolted with bolts at their knees and hip and headlevel by people who've never climbed before...

 

just cuz something is "bolted" doesn't mean its "overbolted"...

 

oh yeah...fuck off...

 

PS: hope you got your "fear" thing worked out...maybe you should visit Muff's local crag...

 

RumR,

 

I think you mis read some of what i wrote.

 

Having been on a slab that was so over bolted that route finding became and issue as a new climber, i do believe that over bolting can be dangerous. along with unethical.

 

my comment about all the rocks being gird bolted was a projection into a very unhappy future if climbers don't stop being ass holes to each other.

 

I hope that helps clear up the point i was trying to make. I am not against bolting per say. I like to sport climb and i like to lead sport way more than i like to lead trad. what i am against, is people putting up shitty routes, and unnecessary bolts. there is a lot of room for interpretation there, but that is what i am against.

 

[ashw_justin]

Define ego. Unless by ego you mean "doing something that you think is right."

 

What makes chopping a bolt any more egotistical than placing one?

 

Again- chopping unneeded bolts has the effect of making people realize that they were not necessary. This realization leads to less bolting of other pristine rock in the future. For example if you allow even a single protectable crack to remain bolted, climbers who don't know any better will assume that all cracks like it should be bolted. Eventually there is a bolt ladder all the way up Outer Space, or the Nose, or -insert your favorite rock climb here-.

 

Very much ego to say they were not nessasary.

 

And to prove to someone else that they were not nessasary buy chopping them is all about your ego. " I dont need this bolt. I can run it out". Is all ego bro. Anyway you slice it.

 

I simply define "not necessary" as the case when there natural protection is available at the same place where you would place a bolt. You seem to be describing cases where bolts that were necessary for the reasonable safety of the leader were chopped.

 

But this is neither about runouts, nor ego. Putting holes in the rock is inherently wrong, but a necessary evil. This is about not drilling holes in the rock unless 1) you have no other choice, 2) you have the support of the climbing community, and 3) it is legal. The chopping I would support is the recognotion of a mistake on one or more of these counts, which is different from the toughguy ego chop that you are talking about.

[kevbone]

I simply define "not necessary" as the case when there natural protection is available at the same place where you would place a bolt.

 

I would agree….there is a lot of these bolts at Smith Rock. Not necessarily bolted cracks but bolts placed within a couple of feet of good pro. These are not necessary.

 

I was talking about the difference of opinion on run outs. One person wants extra bolts were another person would prefer to run it out. It seems to me the person who wants to run it out has a bigger ego. They want to be bold so they can tell the world about it. Check out Smithrock.com, they have a forum devoted to repoints/onsights where you can chest thump and toot your own horn.

 

Putting holes in the rock is inherently wrong, but a necessary evil.

 

I can think of a lot of other more important things to worry about in this world than a hole in a rock.

 

I am of the opinion that if you want to chop something…..you need to contact the developer first and have them buy into it and pull the bolt themselves. If that does not work……fuck off and go climb something else. Does it really affect you?

 

[mattp]

To the extent that you are unhappy with an ongoing tide of retrobolting and unsightly sport climbing development or whatever it is that you may be concerned about, I would think you might look at our fifty year history of climbers policing others through chopping bolts and vilifying the bad guys a chumps or worse, and conclude that more than the occasional crowbar expedition and scathing letter in a climbing magazine or combative post to cc.com is needed.

 

As I indicated on the prior page, I think there are cases where this or that removal has influenced behavior toward more restrained bolting – and some places I think this has been good but in other locations I think it has actually been unfortunate. It is unfortunate where we continue to kill trees with slings on them when a pair of bolts and some chain would solve the problem, or keep using a sandy eroded mess of a descent trail, or maintain climbs in what are generally thought to be a hazardous state even by climbers who are very well capable of climbing a given route. I’m not saying everything should be "safe," but I think in the case of Peshastin Pinnacles, for example, some judicious retrobolting here and there would actually be a good thing. We could debate this point, and I'm sure somebody will be quick to point out that there has not been a "bolt war" at Peshastin, but I believe that fear of controversy has driven some of the management decisions over there toward a bit too conservative and my point is, really, that bolt chopping has the most influence over those who are already prone to act cautiously in such matters and is probably least effective at influencing the rogue newbie with a power tool or climbers who may have little experience outside of a sport climbing area. It has proven largely ineffective as a means to discourage the growth of sport climbing and I think it has had relatively little influence toward increasing interest in so called "trad" ethics.

 

More direct communication is part of the answer. I have just about uniformly heard from climbers whose routes are criticized on this board or in other forums that not one person has ever tried to contact them directly about the matter. It won't go well if you call somebody up and tell them that you think their latest installation which they may have thought about in depth and maybe spent a lot of time and money on is a piece of sh%t, and it pretty much always goes poorly when you post that same critique on a public bulletin board and expect "that bastard" to suddenly wake up and agree that you are right. Hopefully we can find a slightly more communicative approach.

 

Many of the ongoing conflicts over bolting and chopping are driven as much by personality issues as they are by ego, ethics, or anything else. Discussing these matters with others outside our own group of friends is certainly a good start -- hopefully this can help us sort out where we are overly focussed on an old argument with "that guy," and maybe where our justifications for our actions are marginal or our message unclear.

 

In my opinion, the route developer or retrobolter should carefully think about what they are doing, so should the chopper – and then it would be good to find a way to actually talk about it although most climbers I know hate the idea of meetings and climbing area management groups. However, where bolt chopping has led to the result that I presume the bolt choppers desire (more restrained bolting practices), it has usually happened where they have influenced climbers who are acting as a climbing management group even though they may not have not been formally designated as such so they are hard to locate or contact.

[RuMR]

Define ego. Unless by ego you mean "doing something that you think is right."

 

What makes chopping a bolt any more egotistical than placing one?

 

Again- chopping unneeded bolts has the effect of making people realize that they were not necessary. This realization leads to less bolting of other pristine rock in the future. For example if you allow even a single protectable crack to remain bolted, climbers who don't know any better will assume that all cracks like it should be bolted. Eventually there is a bolt ladder all the way up Outer Space, or the Nose, or -insert your favorite rock climb here-.

 

Very much ego to say they were not nessasary.

 

And to prove to someone else that they were not nessasary buy chopping them is all about your ego. " I dont need this bolt. I can run it out". Is all ego bro. Anyway you slice it.

 

I simply define "not necessary" as the case when there natural protection is available at the same place where you would place a bolt. You seem to be describing cases where bolts that were necessary for the reasonable safety of the leader were chopped.

 

But this is neither about runouts, nor ego. [u] Putting holes in the rock is inherently wrong, but a necessary evil.[/u] This is about not drilling holes in the rock unless 1) you have no other choice, 2) you have the support of the climbing community, and 3) it is legal. The chopping I would support is the recognotion of a mistake on one or more of these counts, which is different from the toughguy ego chop that you are talking about.

 

 

excuse me, but where exactly is this codified into law/morals/ethics?? This is simply YOUR opinion...and you know what they say about opinions, don't you??

[catbirdseat]

I’m not saying everything should be "safe," but I think in the case of Peshastin Pinnacles, for example, some judicious retrobolting here and there would actually be a good thing.

I could not agree with you more. Amen.

[kevbone]

I agree with you for agreeing.

[ashw_justin]

Putting holes in the rock is inherently wrong, but a necessary evil.

 

excuse me, but where exactly is this codified into law/morals/ethics?? This is simply YOUR opinion.

 

So, what is your opinion on chipping then (aside from that my opinion on it doesn't matter to you)?

[ivan]

bolts make the indians cry

[RuMR]

Putting holes in the rock is inherently wrong, but a necessary evil.

 

excuse me, but where exactly is this codified into law/morals/ethics?? This is simply YOUR opinion.

 

So, what is your opinion on chipping then (aside from that my opinion on it doesn't matter to you)?

i think it makes the rock cry....

[ashw_justin]

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