sk Posted June 2, 2007 Posted June 2, 2007 If an area has be declared a bolt free zone (no anchors, not bolts no sport climbs, JUST adventure climbing) Who gets to "declare" it a bolt free zone? in my opinion if you locate and area that has yet to be climbed than you are the grandaddy. you put the blood sweat and tears or sheer dumb luck into locating an area and starting something. i think it then becomes ethical to check with you before i make a drastic (bolt or otherwise) change to the area. it isn't about whether you purchased the area or not. it is about respect. it is also respectful to let you know if i found something i want to clean and that i want to work on, so you can let other people know that i am working that bit. it isn't about what is LEGAL or what CAN be done. anyone can do anything. it is about ethics and morals. my personal rights only go so far as they do not interfere with anyone else's personal rights. this reminds me of the thred in newbies about your friends route that got Ganked. I think that sucks. same goes for bolting in an area that most people agree shouldn't' be bolted because it protects so well. i think if you start a project you should be allowed to work on it or pick the person you want to work on it. is it really so vitaly important? Flagstone is always my example. It is a wonderful little crag, fun, out of the way, cool in summer. it has a ton of stiff climbing. the group of men(XOXOOXOXO love you guys) who started climbing there put up a bunch of really stiff routes becuase thats what they climbed. but there were some really well bolted easier routes too, but then someone showed up who didn't talk to them, didn't hang out with them didn't respect them and started squeezing routes in all over the place. then other people started squeezing in routes and now there are a bunch of shitty routes. on one wall when you lead you can literally clip at your knees, hips, head level and out an arms distance (for me and i am little) to routes on either side. it is so confusing i don't even know where to clip any more. one of the people who did all the bolting (hi dave yes i am still beating the same drum ) said he did it to make climbing accessible to everyone. I respect that, but i don't think new climbers are helped by facing such a massive route finding issue. I think it then becomes even more dangerous than it needs to be. we do not have an american climbing Czar. that means we have to find a way to work together in our own best interests. otherwise...the parks or forestry or someone will eventually take the decision making away from us and we wont get to pick and choose of have a say... and every rock in the US will be grid bolted by people who have never climbed before, because it will be a job like cleaning the port a potty in the national park. Quote
sk Posted June 2, 2007 Posted June 2, 2007 FUCK i hate it when you guys get me all worked up about shit i actually care about. can we please go back to talking about nothing? Quote
cj001f Posted June 2, 2007 Posted June 2, 2007 can we please go back to talking about nothing? I'd rather not discuss the genitalia of the republican party and conservatives. Quote
sk Posted June 2, 2007 Posted June 2, 2007 can we please go back to talking about nothing? I'd rather not discuss the genitalia of the republican party and conservatives. it is true you know. democrats and libratariens (can someone teach me to spell that... i have the spell checker totally confused ) have bigger cocks. Quote
marylou Posted June 2, 2007 Posted June 2, 2007 I know there is a correct way to remove a bolt, make an epoxy mix with rock dust of the same color, and fill the hole. Have I ever done it? No, but I get the idea. It would work just fine and be pretty much invisible. What I would like to know, from those who have, or do chop, is this ever done? If not, then why? A chopped bolt, left unfilled, leaves a bigger scar on the landscape than the bolt ever would. Quote
JosephH Posted June 2, 2007 Posted June 2, 2007 Please, having to say "trad climbing" after "climbing" got hijacked by clipping bolts was bad enough - "adventure climbing" is an almost unbearable abomination that simply serves to shuffle real climbing even further back into the shadows. In fact, that this pejorative adjective even exists is about as sad commentary on the real state of climbing today as I can imagine. I mean, what would that make sport climbing if you were to extend the same lexical logic to it, "pedestrian climbing"? Quote
Dechristo Posted June 2, 2007 Posted June 2, 2007 Please, having to say "trad climbing" after "climbing" got hijacked by clipping bolts was bad enough - "adventure climbing" is an almost unbearable abomination that simply serves to shuffle real climbing even further back into the shadows. In fact, that this pejorative adjective even exists is about as sad commentary on the real state of climbing today as I can imagine. I mean, what would that make sport climbing if you were to extend the same lexical logic to it, "pedestrian climbing"? Adventure Via Ferrata Climbing Quote
joblo7 Posted June 2, 2007 Posted June 2, 2007 educate the bolters!! respect the rock. respect the impossible.climb more. Quote
sk Posted June 2, 2007 Posted June 2, 2007 Please, having to say "trad climbing" after "climbing" got hijacked by clipping bolts was bad enough - "adventure climbing" is an almost unbearable abomination that simply serves to shuffle real climbing even further back into the shadows. In fact, that this pejorative adjective even exists is about as sad commentary on the real state of climbing today as I can imagine. I mean, what would that make sport climbing if you were to extend the same lexical logic to it, "pedestrian climbing"? i couldn't agree with you more Joseph. I did not coin the phrase and i agree. it is a sad state of things when you say to people that you "went climbing" and they ask you what gym you climb at. things have changed and are continuing to change as more and more pedestrian PEOPLE take up all of the sports that are included under the heading *CLIMBING* fyi. i do not climb hard i will never climb hard. however it pisses me off that climbing is being brought down to my level. I started climbing because i saw it as HUGELY challenging. that is being taken away by a society that believes everyone should be able to succeed equally. i would rather suck at climbing and flail around all over the place and be teased by the hard people who can achieve at the sport, than have the level of difficulty brought down to my level so that i can FEEL like i can do something. that is no achievement. Quote
sk Posted June 2, 2007 Posted June 2, 2007 I know there is a correct way to remove a bolt, make an epoxy mix with rock dust of the same color, and fill the hole. Have I ever done it? No, but I get the idea. It would work just fine and be pretty much invisible. What I would like to know, from those who have, or do chop, is this ever done? If not, then why? A chopped bolt, left unfilled, leaves a bigger scar on the landscape than the bolt ever would. yes i know people who chopped and epoxied the holes. and then the person who bolted bolted again and it was chopped again and epoxied again. and bolted again.... now people just ignore that fact that the trail is getting bigger and infringing more and more on the forest and that there are more and more people up there with less and less respect. Quote
kevbone Posted June 2, 2007 Posted June 2, 2007 Well said everyone.....but the fact remains if you chop a bolt someone else placed.....no matter why or where they placed it....it is out of ego. End of story. Quote
ashw_justin Posted June 2, 2007 Posted June 2, 2007 Define ego. Unless by ego you mean "doing something that you think is right." What makes chopping a bolt any more egotistical than placing one? Again- chopping unneeded bolts has the effect of making people realize that they were not necessary. This realization leads to less bolting of other pristine rock in the future. For example if you allow even a single protectable crack to remain bolted, climbers who don't know any better will assume that all cracks like it should be bolted. Eventually there is a bolt ladder all the way up Outer Space, or the Nose, or -insert your favorite rock climb here-. Quote
JayB Posted June 2, 2007 Posted June 2, 2007 "For example if you allow even a single protectable crack to remain bolted, climbers who don't know any better will assume that all cracks like it should be bolted.Eventually there is a bolt ladder all the way up Outer Space, or the Nose, or -insert your favorite rock climb here-." This has to be one of the sillier statements I've ever heard on this site. Quote
ashw_justin Posted June 2, 2007 Posted June 2, 2007 I'm not the first one to have said it, and I won't be the last. I think you are underestimating the power of youthful ignorance. Hypothetically, one man's selfish desire to bolt cracks could turn into a legion of newbs who assume that all climbs are supposed to be bolted, despite the unnecessary permanent damage. Before you know it everyone has an alpine power drill on the rack instead of clean pro. Quote
JayB Posted June 2, 2007 Posted June 2, 2007 There's quite a few intersections on the path from climbing a route with a bolted crack to rap-bolting another crack that would prevent such an income in any remotely plausible scenario. The specter of the "Bosch-Toting-Crack-Bolting-Newbie-Hordes-From-Hell" is so far-fetched it would make the average urban legend blush. Can anyone point to a single crack in Washington that's fallen prey to the dreaded bolt-happy newb? Quote
ashw_justin Posted June 2, 2007 Posted June 2, 2007 Well then what are we arguing about if there is no problem. Apparently bolting ethics are known well enough that nothing has to get chopped. As a relatively young climber I appreciate that those climbing before me have tried to limit their impact on the rock, and this is a legacy worth passing on. If I'd found bolts on all of my first climbs, then I would have been denied even the opportunity to realize what clean climbing is about. Quote
JayB Posted June 2, 2007 Posted June 2, 2007 Every once in a great while a cruxy spot that's tough to protect with gear, or that used to be protected with an old pin gets bolted, or someone puts up a line an puts a bolt someplace that someone else is convinced protects well enough with gear. If this is the problem you are talking about, that'd be one thing. Bring the hilti-armed newbie hordes grid-bolting line after line and you've drifted into the realm of fantasy. This is not a problem. This is not even a potential problem worth worrying about. Quote
cj001f Posted June 2, 2007 Posted June 2, 2007 The specter of the "Bosch-Toting-Crack-Bolting-Newbie-Hordes-From-Hell" is so far-fetched it would make the average urban legend blush. don't venture abroad much, do ya? Quote
ashw_justin Posted June 2, 2007 Posted June 2, 2007 But installing even a single unethical bolt is already on the road to La Via a Ferrata! Quote
RuMR Posted June 2, 2007 Posted June 2, 2007 it is not just ego IMHO... there are times when chopping becouse a neccisary evil. If an area has be declared a bolt free zone (no anchors, not bolts no sport climbs, JUST adventure climbing) then i believe if a person goes to that area and bolts a route, it needs to be cleaned up. there are times when an area becomes to over bolted and it becomes unsafe to try and add *more easy routes* to an already over crowded wall. often those routes are ugly and uninteresting and anything that is there could be top roped from and anchor on either side it needs to be cleaned up. I think that anyone who goes out on a whim and chops bolts, who has not talked with the majority of other climbers in an area is making a mistake. no one owns the rock, we all have to share and play nice. but respecting the ethic of an area, and havig a bit of pride in bolting a ROUTE rather than just drilling some bolts on a wall are important things to consider, as is the safety of other climbers. ---yes yes i know i always get sucked into this. and yes i would like to see some bolts choped and routes removed from some of my favorite areas. but it is a war that can not be won. having seen what cah happen when a bolt war begins... well it just makes me sad. the real loser is mother nature. everyone should just climb cracks i don't think mother nature gives a flying turd one way or the other about some studs in a piece of rock... Quote
RuMR Posted June 2, 2007 Posted June 2, 2007 no one ever seems to say why they think bolting, in general, is a bad thing. #1: Leave no trace. #2: There are (almost) no bolts on alpine routes, nor should there be. Particularly at certain crags in the NW where many people climb to prepare for alpine routes, the practice routes should not be bolted except where unanimously deemed necessary (anchors, runout face). #3: YES, bolts can get in the way of climbing, even if you are not using them.#4: Last weekend I led a well-protectable crack at Red Wing, MN that looks to have been been retrobolted and chopped more than once. Because climbers must lead it on gear, they will realize that bolts are not necessary on any climb like it, and will not be tempted to bolt (or support the bolting of) any climb like it. That is a clear virtue of chopping where appropriate (as defined by reasonably safe to lead cleanly). gotta call bullshit on this one, assworked..."uh yeah, gee, i fell off that route cuz of the bolt.."...yeah, righto...NEXT also..."reasonably safe to lead cleanly" is ambiguous...what's reasonable?? that is the definition of an individual...ie Kevin recently whined about a 10 foot fall onto a slab as being "not safe"...everyone else jumped his shit about it... Quote
RuMR Posted June 2, 2007 Posted June 2, 2007 (edited) If an area has be declared a bolt free zone (no anchors, not bolts no sport climbs, JUST adventure climbing) Who gets to "declare" it a bolt free zone? in my opinion if you locate and area that has yet to be climbed than you are the grandaddy. you put the blood sweat and tears or sheer dumb luck into locating an area and starting something. i think it then becomes ethical to check with you before i make a drastic (bolt or otherwise) change to the area. it isn't about whether you purchased the area or not. it is about respect. it is also respectful to let you know if i found something i want to clean and that i want to work on, so you can let other people know that i am working that bit. it isn't about what is LEGAL or what CAN be done. anyone can do anything. it is about ethics and morals. my personal rights only go so far as they do not interfere with anyone else's personal rights. this reminds me of the thred in newbies about your friends route that got Ganked. I think that sucks. same goes for bolting in an area that most people agree shouldn't' be bolted because it protects so well. i think if you start a project you should be allowed to work on it or pick the person you want to work on it. is it really so vitaly important? Flagstone is always my example. It is a wonderful little crag, fun, out of the way, cool in summer. it has a ton of stiff climbing. the group of men(XOXOOXOXO love you guys) who started climbing there put up a bunch of really stiff routes becuase thats what they climbed. but there were some really well bolted easier routes too, but then someone showed up who didn't talk to them, didn't hang out with them didn't respect them and started squeezing routes in all over the place. then other people started squeezing in routes and now there are a bunch of shitty routes. on one wall when you lead you can literally clip at your knees, hips, head level and out an arms distance (for me and i am little) to routes on either side. it is so confusing i don't even know where to clip any more. one of the people who did all the bolting (hi dave yes i am still beating the same drum ) said he did it to make climbing accessible to everyone. I respect that, but i don't think new climbers are helped by facing such a massive route finding issue. I think it then becomes even more dangerous than it needs to be. we do not have an american climbing Czar. that means we have to find a way to work together in our own best interests. otherwise...the parks or forestry or someone will eventually take the decision making away from us and we wont get to pick and choose of have a say... and every rock in the US will be grid bolted by people who have never climbed before, because it will be a job like cleaning the port a potty in the national park. now i have heard everything...too many bolts makes it more dangerous? :lmao: hahahaha In Europe, the limestone is pretty much only bolt protected at the crags and you can fall a really really long way... I think it has more to do with the individuals placing the bolts than the bolts themselves... Edited June 2, 2007 by RuMR Quote
RuMR Posted June 2, 2007 Posted June 2, 2007 There's quite a few intersections on the path from climbing a route with a bolted crack to rap-bolting another crack that would prevent such an income in any remotely plausible scenario. The specter of the "Bosch-Toting-Crack-Bolting-Newbie-Hordes-From-Hell" is so far-fetched it would make the average urban legend blush. Can anyone point to a single crack in Washington that's fallen prey to the dreaded bolt-happy newb? :LMAO: assworked just got worked... Quote
cj001f Posted June 2, 2007 Posted June 2, 2007 In Europe, the limestone is pretty much only bolt protected at the crags and you can fall a really really long way... can you say "regional ethics" ruMR? Or are you conversing in JayB? Quote
RuMR Posted June 3, 2007 Posted June 3, 2007 (edited) duh... the comment was in response to muff's drivel about everything being gridbolted with bolts at their knees and hip and headlevel by people who've never climbed before... just cuz something is "bolted" doesn't mean its "overbolted"... oh yeah...fuck off... PS: hope you got your "fear" thing worked out...maybe you should visit Muff's local crag... Edited June 3, 2007 by RuMR Quote
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