Clipping into the belay?

[canboom]

What is the proper way for a leader using a single rope to “clip” into the power point of a pre-equalized belay anchor? Mark Twight vaguely suggests clipping in, Freedom of the Hills shows tying in with your end of the rope using a clove hitch. Is it acceptable for the leader to clip into the power point with a daisy chain and locking biner and clip the climbing rope into the power point locking biner without tying off the climbing rope to that biner? I’ve learned to tie in using a clove hitch, in this way the rope is directly secured to the anchor and the daisy chain is for your own protection, not the teams. Any thoughts?

[Blake]

I would not get in the habit of developing too many "rules" in climbing. Allow each situation to dictate the best course of action.

 

Basically, connect yourself to the powerpoint using a daisy chain, a runner hitched to your harness, or the rope you are tied in to. Use two of the 3 if you want to be extra safe, and uselocking/opposed carabiners for the same reason.

 

If you just led the pitch, and your partner will lead the next pitch, tying-in with the rope works well. If you are about to haul in all the extra rope, and then lead the next pitch, anchoring in with the rope means everything will be "upside-down".

 

Is it acceptable for the leader to clip into the power point with a daisy chain and locking biner and clip the climbing rope into the power point locking biner without tying off the climbing rope to that biner?

 

Why would you want to clip the rope into a random biner on the anchor like that, once you are off-belay on a daisy? Sure it's safe, but is there a reason?

 

The only rationale I can imagine for merely clipping the rope through a spot on the anchor (rather than tying yourself off with it) is if the anchor is above you, you will be belaying a follower, and you don't want to have your belay device pulled downward if the 2nd hangs. Therefor you'd redirect the rope to a a point above you. This is for convenience and ease, not safety.

Edited April 10, 2007 by Blake

[kurthicks]

Although Blake is correct about not developing too many rules, there is one rule that I believe in...simplicity. Daisy chains, although useful for some applications such as aid climbing, are not suited for multipitch climbing. I have simply seen too many leaders get to the belay, clip off with the daisy, and belay off their body. Daisy chains are designed for body weight only, not you and your partner, or for catching a fall.

 

http://www.bdel.com/videos/daisy.html

 

nine times out of ten, my system is as follows:

build anchor

clove off to master point with lead rope.

pull up slack

direct belay off anchor (assuming a good anchor) using a munter or autoblocking device (atc-guide, reverso, etc) OR do an indirect belay off your body to reduce forces on the anchor (device, munter, hip, etc)

bring partner up

flip or restack rope

continue

[hemp22]

Tie into the powerpoint with your rope, using a clove hitch to a locking biner.

Your rope is dynamic. Slings & daisies are not, so I wouldn't use them if you're going to belay the next pitch.

 

If you do connect in with a daisy chain, be sure that you are not using it in a way where you'll become totally disconnected if the smaller loop bartacks start to blow out.

 

---

actually, I just read the next post, and it's hard to tell from your question, but I think you might be asking whether it's okay to connect to the anchor with your daisy/sling and a locker, and then re-direct the rope through that same locker when belaying.

If that's the case, then the answer is no - you probably don't want to have a moving rope through the same biner as the one you're hanging off. If the follower falls, the friction can damage the nylon, so use a second biner.

 

 

[montypiton]

echoing kurthicks' post, daisies are not designed for anchoring belays - but should be considered an aid tool. I like to keep things a)simple, and b)strong. Most often, the strongest link in your belay chain is the rope, so I anchor with that. I am not fond of routing the belay rope from a second climber through a belay anchor above me and then back to my harness, because that multiplies the force on the anchor (you create a 2:1 mechanical advantage against your anchor when you do that). I'm well aware that doubling the force of a top-rope fall is most likely not significant for most anchors, but it's a lousy habit to form and then have to guard against when you eventually find yourself forced to belay off a less-than-stellar anchor. By anchoring myself with the belay rope,(as hemp22 suggests above) and then belaying off the tie-in point on my harness, I keep the maximum amount of shock-absorbing rope in service to protect my belay anchor.

[Blake]

Is it really the case that belaying a follower through a re-direct point above you will put more force on the anchor (if they hang) than just belaying straight off your harness?(assuming you come tight on the anchor while holding your second)

 

If this is true, can someone explain why?

[G-spotter]

it's physics

 

i switched from a daisy to the metolius PAS. tying in with the rope makes for clusterfucks when rappelling and/or simulclimbing.

[TrogdortheBurninator]

Blake,

 

If you belay 150# directly off your harness, then the weight on the anchor (or your harness if things arent tight) is 150#. If the rope goes through a directional, you have 150# on one side of the biner (from the climber), but also you must be placing an equal load on the belayer side of the biner (otherwise things wouldnt be in equilibrium). So, that 150# climber places a 300# load on the directional.

[counterfeitfake]

If you belay 150# directly off your harness, the weight on the anchor is your weight plus 150#.

[TrogdortheBurninator]

that isnt the point i was trying to make. IMagine it isnt a hanging belay.

 

...

 

Fine replace belaying off your harness with autoblocking off the anchor.

[dan_forester]

Tying in to the anchor with a clove hitch on the climbing rope is the way to go.

 

I don't redirect the rope unless I have a bolt or a really secure piece separate from the main anchor.

[kurthicks]

Belay options in order of the most force put on anchor to least:

 

1. "top rope" style redirected belay--follower weight plus equal & opposite braking force (never a best option)

2. direct belay off anchor (munter, autoblock)--follower weight only (best option for bomber anchors)

3. indirect belay off body --follower weight minus whatever force the belayer can absorb (plus/minus the belayer's weight depending on the stance/terrain) (best option for mank anchors)

[Blake]

Blake,

 

If you belay 150# directly off your harness, then the weight on the anchor (or your harness if things arent tight) is 150#. If the rope goes through a directional, you have 150# on one side of the biner (from the climber), but also you must be placing an equal load on the belayer side of the biner (otherwise things wouldnt be in equilibrium). So, that 150# climber places a 300# load on the directional.

 

Oh, that makes perfect sense.

 

Still, I would hope that your belay anchor, under any reasonable situation, is able to handle 2x the follower's body weight easily.

[catbirdseat]

Tying in to the anchor with a clove hitch on the climbing rope is the way to go.

 

I don't redirect the rope unless I have a bolt or a really secure piece separate from the main anchor.

I'll use the power point of the anchor on occasion, but otherwise, yes, it needs to be a piece separate from the anchor.

[blueserac]

Simplicity. Simplicity. Simplicity. This is the key to most safe and efficient anchor/belay rigs. Consider how many links you have in your safety chain with daisies and what nots.

 

I use the climbing rope from my harness with a figure-of-eight-on-a-bight to connect to the anchor node clipped into a locker or two regular biners opposed. I have read that a clove hitch can slip at ~1ooo lbs.

 

Daises are great for rapping. I often use a pusik cord, made redundant (not girth-hitched) through my harness. This reduces the extra junk to carry.

 

Belaying from a redirect (biner) clipped into the anchor node makes your work easier, especially if you are needed to take the weight of your second. This method also facilitates ergonomic braking with your hand, just pull as normal. Belaying from an overhead anchor point and belay device such as the Munther Hitch is is great. Suit the tool for the job, use the appropriate combinations as needed.

 

If you are leading all the pitches, try developing a system where, once your second is anchored to the station, your second quickly re-piles the rope while you re-rack from the gear they cleaned. I have seen folks race past many parties with good systems like thise and not reduce any of the safety margin.

 

Everyone seems to hit some key notes.

 

Edited April 10, 2007 by blueserac

[Jamin]

So why doesn't everybody just tie into the anchor with a figure eight loop rather than a clove?

[willstrickland]

Because you can more easily maniupulate the length with a clove to fine-tune your length to the anchor, and it's easier to untie if it gets loaded.

[jmace]

Daisy chains are designed for body weight only, not you and your partner, or for catching a fall.

 

Thats weird, everyone I have bought is a full strength sling desined for everything you just said it cant do..

 

 

[counterfeitfake]

Normal daisies are full-strength slings from end-to-end but the bar tacking in each pocket is weaker. I think ez-daisies are body weight only.

[crazy_t]

You can adjust a clove easily, while staying "in". For example, if your 2cnd was having trouble, you could extend your tie-in via the clove to take a look over the edge, etc.without unlocking the biner/undoing the knot.

 

As far as redirecting, like some have said if there is pull from a fall it will be up vs. down, and makes things a lot easier if there is any need for tieing someone off, assisting the second, rescue etc. Gives you a lot more options that are easy to employ if something comes up. And having a reverso or gigi lets you tend to other stuff on longer routes while your partner is between moves, saving a lot of time.

 

And like others have said, if I am leading consecutive pitches I or the second will just re-flake the rope once they are in at the belay; 30 seconds of work (a little more if a hanging belay) to insure the rope running smoothly.

[jmace]

Tie into the powerpoint with your rope, using a clove hitch to a locking biner.

 

I think one of the more common mis tied knots is the clove hitch, how its oriented wrt to the spine of the biner can play an important role. I believe backing this knot up is an important part of your belay. I would do this with a PAS or a daisy.

 

You can have a dynamic belay wether you use a sling or rope it doesnt matter.

[blueserac]

The figure-eight is easy to use, what you see is often what you get. This is helpful when you are going on hour 28 or so.

 

The less think I do the better everyone else benefits.

[baker_bc]

I think one of the more common mis tied knots is the clove hitch, how its oriented wrt to the spine of the biner can play an important role.

 

Can you explain this, as I can't see what you mean?

 

I believe backing this knot up is an important part of your belay. I would do this with a PAS or a daisy.

 

I tie in with the climbing rope and a clove hitch, because it's fast, can be done one handed, and allows length adjustment later. Immediately after weighting the clove hitch, I tie a figure 8 on a bight a couple of feet down the rope and add this into the same locker with the clove hitch, then lock it. This limits the length of adjustment available, but I reason that it provides a backup to the clove hitch slipping.

 

I just started trad climbing this year and have learned a lot from this forum, so would appreciate feedback on potential problems with this approach.

 

 

[G-spotter]

the clove hitch has two ropes coming out of it in different directions. hence two potential orientations.

 

the end that gets loaded should be the one next to the spine and away from the gate.

 

in your example, the end that goes to the fig-8 will not be loaded but the other end will be, so... i hope you were tying those right!

[catbirdseat]

I think one of the more common mis tied knots is the clove hitch, how its oriented wrt to the spine of the biner can play an important role. I believe backing this knot up is an important part of your belay. I would do this with a PAS or a daisy.

Wow, I was completely unaware of this. I had to go tie a clove hitch to see whether I have been doing it right. I had a fifty percent chance either way. Fortunately, I've been tying it right all along. I am so relieved.