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wayne

New Beacon Master Topo!

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Good guidebooks are a collective history of the art of climbing. Good topos are works of art that document and hint at the struggles and searching an FA team experienced. They also provide the beta for people to move more efficiently and with more confidence through the vertical, adding another page to someone else's experience. They call visitors to come and experience the best that a climbing location can offer.

 

 

 

And in Tim Olsen's world the purpose is to make money. He does not even climb anymore.

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Edit: Sorry, my internet connection burped.

Edited by mtnfreak

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Good guidebooks are a collective history of the art of climbing.

 

Actually, almost all guidebooks present the information I have no interest in and leave out all the info I am - the story of the FA and what was going on with the climbers that led to the route's existence.

 

Good topos are works of art that document and hint at the struggles and searching an FA team experienced.

 

That may be the case in alpine or on a big wall, but otherwise I disagree.

 

They also provide the beta for people to move more efficiently and with more confidence through the vertical, adding another page to someone else's experience. They call visitors to come and experience the best that a climbing location can offer.

 

They do provide this service to people incapable or unwilling to providing it for themselves.

 

Every climb isn't a FA.

No, but there's absolutely nothing stopping folks from developing the eye and the skill to simply drop in on a crag, completely ignore who has climbed what, and just jump on whatever catches their eye.

 

Joseph's insistence by stating, "I am and have always been anti-beta and anti-guide - both are basically the antithesis of everything I climb for..." is localism and elitist.

 

No it's not. It has nothing to do with either localism or elistism. It is purely a product of coming up in an area where everything we touched was an FA and a deep desire to not know anything about lines before I get on them. I don't even like knowing a line is a route - in fact, until after the fact I couldn't care less if a line has been climbed or not. I like just walking in, eyeballing lines and jumping on whatever I get obsessed with. Do I epic and retreat sometimes? You bet your ass; again and again, and those are some of the most memorable climbs of all. Every climb I do isn't an FA, but I try to treat every one like it is.

 

Climbing is a shared experience - we can do better than Joseph's method.

 

Break out a guide book when you hit a new crag and you are instantly passing on the first real opportunity presented to you - cluelessness. You can, but you'll miss out on the essential unknown and adventure available to you. As far as I'm concerned you are quite welcome to the socialized, commercialized, homogenized, and risk-averse climbing many of you seem to prefer.

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Joseph, you didn't grow up climbing in a vacume, and those guidebooks and topos and magazines you've read surely have influenced you. The shoes and harnesses and ropes and protection you use are a result of this shared experience you insist that you don't participate in. Hell, so is this website - another form of guidebook/topo/beta - in fact, you've provided beta for Beacon routes right on this site!

 

Socialized, commercialized, homogenized, and risk-averse. Climbing became commercialized when the Chamonix Company of Guides was formed in 1821. Socialized - the American Alpine Club was founded in 1902. Homogenized - until we get more women and minority climbers, this is still an art dominated by white middle-class men like you. Risk averse? How's that harness feeling, or those cams you use.

 

The essential unknown and adventure are still out there, whether Tim publishes a topo or not.

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Bill is one of the meanest guys on this site.

 

Bill. Is this true? Are you mean?

 

:cry: Sad but true. :grin:

_____________________________________________________

 

BTW, couple more dry days and some of these yahoos will be getting out to the Butte, Broughtons and (later) even Beacon after Work! . Here's the link from last year, so keep an eye open for it, titled "PDX alpine anonmys" by John cause they were getting out and dry tooling. Giving good belays are the only mandatory requirement (like page 23 or so), so feel free to join in if that's you. PDX after work workout thread

 

It's nice to have some fairly reliable days to stay in shape with some fairly nice folks too.

 

About that mean thing, truthfully, I'm only mean to Brian (Powderhound) cause I expect so much from him and because he's such a friggan good climber. And strong. And young. And good-looking. And smart. And nice. Dudes got the whole package. My wife and daughter coo and purr when he stops by my house after work to go climbing. It's pretty sickening.:-) They sit on the steps and preen trying to look good for him. :lmao: Pretty soon I expect he'll have more money than me too, so I'm not even too mean to him really.

 

If I was too mean to anyone else, I'd expect to get some shit belays, and everybody gives me good belays, so maybe it's not really true.

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Joe and Kevin,

For some reason areas like Beacon seem to have a "locals only" feel to them, and you guys are propagating that attitude.

 

Beacon is a crag, not a backcountry alpine climb; it's a crag next to a major metropolitan area. It is a place to practice you skills and have fun doing so at the same time. The reason people have been able to push the limits of climbing in far off ranges is because of training grounds like beacon.

 

So if someone doesn't want to waste their time walking in random directions from their home, looking for a place to climb, then good topos and beta are necessary. If you don't want to know what the grade is or where a climb goes, then you have an easy choice: don't use the guidebook.

 

If the reason for the negative attitude towards this topo is the person who made it and there's supposed to be a better one out, then whoever is working on that project should not be concerned. Many areas have multiple guidebooks and topos.

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Joseph, you didn't grow up climbing in a vacume, and those guidebooks and topos and magazines you've read surely have influenced you.

 

The only beta I've used of late was for the descent of Epi. I don't use guidebooks or topos and don't want beta before I climb. So no, I've not been influenced by such things - not sure how you consider magazines in that mix.

 

The shoes and harnesses and ropes and protection you use are a result of this shared experience you insist that you don't participate in. Hell, so is this website - another form of guidebook/topo/beta - in fact, you've provided beta for Beacon routes right on this site!

 

I have provided a TR on the one route that is overbolted such that it draws endless traffic yet has significant routefinding difficult. The pitches where it can go wrong can do so on terrain that has the potential to get ugly fast. If the route were not bolted in a manner which attracts a large number of folks who could potentially get in trouble I wouldn't have bothered. It is the one preventative I have posted for the sake of preventing rescues.

 

Socialized, commercialized, homogenized, and risk-averse. Climbing became commercialized when the Chamonix Company of Guides was formed in 1821. Socialized - the American Alpine Club was founded in 1902. Homogenized - until we get more women and minority climbers, this is still an art dominated by white middle-class men like you. Risk averse? How's that harness feeling, or those cams you use.

 

You so miss the mark, by a mile. 'Socialized' is about climbers losing both self-reliance and self-responsibility. Pretty apparent in the number of people who mainly climb in groups. 'Commercialized' is about selling climbing as just another form of risk-free entertainment. 'Homogenized' is more about reducing all climbs to the same risk profile [bolting] to provide that risk-free entertainment for the masses. 'Risk averse' is about gyms and the production of 'safe' routes that together allows 80-85% of today's climbers to identify themselves as climbers. If bolts disappeared tomorrow, those 80-85% would no longer be climbers the next day.

 

The essential unknown and adventure are still out there, whether Tim publishes a topo or not.

 

Tim still hasn't reconciled the ill-will from his last publishing misadventure. He made no effort to get together with the Beacon crew to resolve those conflicts let alone produce a "master" topo of the place. This topo is the product of pure hubris and driven by ego and money. No doubt he'll be moving down the road to add insult to injury.

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Joe and Kevin,

For some reason areas like Beacon seem to have a "locals only" feel to them, and you guys are propagating that attitude.

 

I only have one - one - interest, and that's protecting Beacon as a trad climbing area. I couldn't care less who climbs there so long as they respect the character and traditions of the place. I'm not remotely interested in Beacon ever being a safe, fun place to climb - just the contrary, I'm looking for it to stay a serious place to climb.

 

Beacon is a crag, not a backcountry alpine climb; it's a crag next to a major metropolitan area. It is a place to practice you skills and have fun doing so at the same time. The reason people have been able to push the limits of climbing in far off ranges is because of training grounds like beacon.

 

I agree with most of what you say here. But regardless of it's proximity to PDX, keeping the essential character of Beacon intact is my only priority - as opposed to providing entertainment for a risk-averse public. There are no shortage of safe, well-documented, sport areas around - no need to bring Beacon down to that level.

 

So if someone doesn't want to waste their time walking in random directions from their home, looking for a place to climb, then good topos and beta are necessary. If you don't want to know what the grade is or where a climb goes, then you have an easy choice: don't use the guidebook.

 

Anyone driving down 84 can find Beacon. No guide or topo was ever necessary..

 

If the reason for the negative attitude towards this topo is the person who made it and there's supposed to be a better one out, then whoever is working on that project should not be concerned. Many areas have multiple guidebooks and topos.

 

It would be better if there were none at all as far as I'm concerned. Beacon will remain only as 'real' as folks keep it...

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Joseph,

I see your point, but I have to respectfully disagree. I think for the kind of experience you're looking for, you need to head into the mountains. Unless you only climb at one crag all the time and have a local to show you around, folks will be seriously wasting their time "exploring" beacon. There are plenty of other crags around but they suck ass compared to Beacon.

I'd fight other battles than keeping a cragging area "secret" like dealing with the tourons, garbage, and park-service closures (which was really cool of you to do last year by the way).

 

 

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Tim still hasn't reconciled the ill-will from his last publishing misadventure. He made no effort to get together with the Beacon crew to resolve those conflicts let alone produce a "master" topo of the place. This topo is the product of pure hubris and driven by ego and money. No doubt he'll be moving down the road to add insult to injury.

 

 

I have to call BS here, JH. You and I exchanged emails about this project. Tim also contacted you. I saw the emails. My understanding is that he at least tried to set up a meet with you. You're saying that never happened?

 

"Effort" was made. But as you indicated then, and you're certainly reinforcing here, the only contribution you guys were willing to make was to say, "Don't Do It." It seems a bit beyond phony to now come here and say that no attempt was made to get you guys onboard.

 

I think it's pretty obvious who hasn't reconciled their ill will here. Tim "moved on" long ago. Please consider trying to do the same.

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didn't tim stop climbing to pursue a relationship with god , or did he move on past that one to.

Edited by pink

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Wow: guess I should have read more before I replied the first time.

 

'Socialized' is about climbers losing both self-reliance and self-responsibility.

:confused: ???

 

'Risk averse' is about gyms and the production of 'safe' routes that together allows 80-85% of today's climbers to identify themselves as climbers. If bolts disappeared tomorrow, those 80-85% would no longer be climbers the next day.

 

Are you okay...I mean I hope you are not just blowing some random figure out your ass.

Edited by powderhound

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Good guidebooks are a collective history of the art of climbing.

 

"Actually, almost all guidebooks present the information I have no interest in and leave out all the info I am - the story of the FA and what was going on with the climbers that led to the route's existence."

 

 

 

have to agree with joseph here! Wish there was way more history in the guidebooks. Of course they'd be huge and you couldn't bring them to the climbs. I find that most of my local guidebooks never leave home anyways. However, when I go to Redrocks I'm doing research like a son-of-a-bitch!

 

I'm sure I'll slap down my 40 bucs for my copy.

 

I'm curious to see if any of the latest FA's are listed. Doubt it!

 

stewart

Edited by Stewart

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'Risk averse' is about gyms and the production of 'safe' routes that together allows 80-85% of today's climbers to identify themselves as climbers. If bolts disappeared tomorrow, those 80-85% would no longer be climbers the next day.

 

Are you okay...I mean I hope you are not just blowing some random figure out your ass.

 

Where else would I get a number like that? Where would anyone get a number like that? There are no numbers like that. You can only estimate numbers like that, which is what I did. You think it's wildly off? I don't. On any given day, I'm guessing of the percentage of folks who own a harness and have been climbing in the last year, only 15-20% are prepared to lead trad. That if gyms and sport routes weren't available there would be an overnight collapse in the number of climbers.

 

It goes hand-in-hand with the fact that most are only looking for risk-averse entertainment; climbing which requires them to personally assume risk is not on their radar. The problem with this new majority is the amount of rock that needs to be bolted to support them outside of gyms. My sole concern is insuring Beacon is not thrown under that particular train even if every other rock in a 100 mile radius of PDX is...

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Joseph,

I see your point, but I have to respectfully disagree. I think for the kind of experience you're looking for, you need to head into the mountains. Unless you only climb at one crag all the time and have a local to show you around, folks will be seriously wasting their time "exploring" beacon. There are plenty of other crags around but they suck ass compared to Beacon. I'd fight other battles than keeping a cragging area "secret" like dealing with the tourons, garbage, and park-service closures (which was really cool of you to do last year by the way).

 

No problem, and I don't have any desire to make or keep Beacon "secret" - it's a bit too obvious for that. But an armchair guide was never required for the place. As for folks 'wasting their time' exploring Beacon, it takes less than three minutes to traverse the base of the entire south face. How much time could they waste? Pretty much everyone just walks by the center columns giving them the instant no-go decision on the spot. That leaves the SE and SW corners. The SW corner doesn't require much exploring and the lines are obvious. The SE corner holds some adventure, but most of it manageble with an end target in sight. From my perspective, it's just not an instant gratification sort of place and I believe that is the source of some of the tension around it as some of us don't look at the place that way even if it is close to town.

 

[ Note: If people want beta, they should adopt a southface column route and clean it when it opens this year - then they'd have all the beta they need by the time they're done... ]

 

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Tim still hasn't reconciled the ill-will from his last publishing misadventure. He made no effort to get together with the Beacon crew to resolve those conflicts let alone produce a "master" topo of the place. This topo is the product of pure hubris and driven by ego and money. No doubt he'll be moving down the road to add insult to injury.

 

I have to call BS here, JH. You and I exchanged emails about this project. Tim also contacted you. I saw the emails. My understanding is that he at least tried to set up a meet with you. You're saying that never happened?

 

And I repeatedly asked him to get together with the crew who are the ones that have the beef with him, and from my perspective he did not make any effort in that regard. Instead, he was incredibly cryptic, oblique, secretive, faild to mention things, and was difficult in general to communicate with in every attempt I made to have a conversation with him. It still seems amazing to me that he wouldn't simply ask folks down to Lucky Lab for a beer to give their individual and collective thoughts on the matter. I wasn't in the bolt war with him and it wasn't my routes subject to misinformation - I actully tried to facilitate them reconciling their differences.

 

"Effort" was made. But as you indicated then, and you're certainly reinforcing here, the only contribution you guys were willing to make was to say, "Don't Do It." It seems a bit beyond phony to now come here and say that no attempt was made to get you guys onboard.

 

Effort was made, and not in any open way, he simply tried to pump me for info to complete and 'verify' a project he worked on without a word to anyone. And yeah, he might not have won folks over - I was quite upfront and honest about my personal feelings about all guides. And of course, what makes simply respecting those collectively voiced wishes and not publishing a topo such a non-option? I'm still at a complete loss as to just what, all these years later, could possibly drive him to feel the need to publish this topo other than hubris, ego, and/or financial gain. I personally find it more than just a bit sad. If he wanted to do something for Beacon he could come out and clean old routes and remove a bunch of the funky hardware he still has littering the place.

 

I think it's pretty obvious who hasn't reconciled their ill will here. Tim "moved on" long ago. Please consider trying to do the same.

 

Tim has clearly moved on relative to climbing at Beacon, but is just as cryptic and uncommunicative about his projects and intentions today as everyone I've talked to described him back in the day. Had Tim simply 'moved on' there would be no topo and he wouldn't be exploiting the place this in this way. At best we can only hope he left out the stars.

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Tim still hasn't reconciled the ill-will from his last publishing misadventure. He made no effort to get together with the Beacon crew to resolve those conflicts let alone produce a "master" topo of the place. This topo is the product of pure hubris and driven by ego and money. No doubt he'll be moving down the road to add insult to injury.

 

 

I have to call BS here, JH. You and I exchanged emails about this project. Tim also contacted you. I saw the emails. My understanding is that he at least tried to set up a meet with you. You're saying that never happened?

 

"Effort" was made. But as you indicated then, and you're certainly reinforcing here, the only contribution you guys were willing to make was to say, "Don't Do It." It seems a bit beyond phony to now come here and say that no attempt was made to get you guys onboard.

 

I think it's pretty obvious who hasn't reconciled their ill will here. Tim "moved on" long ago. Please consider trying to do the same.

 

 

I also was CC.ed on those emails. Effort was made, but it seemed like Tim was going to do what Tim was going to do. I did not get the impression that he was open for any constructive criticism. Of any kind. If you ask the locals of 20 years ago. Tim is not high on there list of favorite people. The current guide book is wrong.

 

I agree with Stewart, wonder if he will list all the new FFA’s. My guess is no, considering I know some of the FFA climbers and Tim has not gotten ahold of them to get info from.

 

Wayne….see what can of worms you have opened by posting about Beacon. Ha ha.

 

Edited by kevbone

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Joseph,

I see your point, but I have to respectfully disagree. I think for the kind of experience you're looking for, you need to head into the mountains. Unless you only climb at one crag all the time and have a local to show you around, folks will be seriously wasting their time "exploring" beacon. There are plenty of other crags around but they suck ass compared to Beacon.

I'd fight other battles than keeping a cragging area "secret" like dealing with the tourons, garbage, and park-service closures (which was really cool of you to do last year by the way).

 

 

Mike.....Jim did not have a local to show him around and he managed to put up 30 or more climbs there. I don’t think it was a waste of his time. Beacon rules. New guide book or not. I think the consensus of the "locals" is that Tim screwed up the last one and has not made an attempt to fix anything (that I am aware of) and will probably make the same mistake and piss a lot more people off. I agree with JH. Tim was very vague in his emails. Tim does not ever climb anymore.

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I've got zero time for this, and ultimately, it seems like you guys are gonna see what you want to see, but...

 

The TimO I know is a guy who loves to draw. He loves drawing topos the way some folks love putting up routes. I've got a several of his drawings hanging in my home. They "may not be Art" but I love them.

 

The topo was my wifes idea. They were talking over dinner when she mentioned that she thought it'd be cool to have one of his pen and ink drawings of Beacon's South side blown-up and mounted on poster board. I think she envisioned no route info at all.

 

For a number of reasons that idea morphed into what we're talking about here. It "may not be art," but I think folks will find it a lot more useful. We're still hoping to get the poster made someday. The original drawings are beautiful.

 

The vibe was so different when we ran into you guys on the SE Corner last year... Climbing will do that, I guess.

 

The "Beta Genie" has been out of the bottle for a long time.

 

I have got to go!

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Joe, I think you're being a little disingenous here and I see why people perceive you as just wanting to keep people away and retain Beacon as a private playground for you and your buddies. Let me explain:

 

You claim to want only to preserve the trad character of Beacon. I share that desire.

But you repeatedly decry the publishing of any guide. What I see as the biggest threat to that trad character is the retrobolting of existing lines (often through ignorance that it has already been led on gear, especially on obscure/rarely done lines). An accurate guidebook/topo can go a long way toward keeping this from happening and emphasizing that retrobolting is not generally acceptable.

 

I can understand if you think the topo would be inaccurate, misleading, have personal issues with the author, and don't support this particular project. But your desire to have no guide at all does not jive with the desire to see the place's trad heritage protected IMO. Any of your locals clique/inner circle could have produced their own product if you have problems with Olson's accuracy, motives, etc.

 

The place is obvious to any schmo driving through the Gorge and without a guide people would show up, history would get bungled as these "out of the loop" or "non-locals" came up with their own names and ratings for stuff and then that bogus info propagates through the larger climbing community. It's a problem with that I've seen at alot of areas and it's very hard to correct.

 

 

 

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I think JH is admirably sticking up for a few folks who feel more strongly than him on this issue but do not post online.

 

However, I know what he is talking about in one aspect and it goes like this: I'll try and lay it out so that you all will understand it.

 

Origonally, climbers would orally describe routes to each other, if at all. So in the early days, you'd have to walk up to a line and determine if YOU, could climb THAT line which you were staring up at. You might have heard of someone who had climbed it or knew someone who knew someone who had climbed it, or maybe not.

 

It is a whole different vibe. In some ways better, in some ways not. I don't want to write the book on it right here. Different.

 

-end of that rant-

 

So in the spirit of friendliness and climber unity. I propose that all true climbers now call Beacon Rock "Nocaeb Kcor", shhhhh - which is Beacon spelled backwards to protect the magic and mystery of the place.

 

Do I have a second?

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BTW, a quick survey shows that 35% of the climbers doing 85% of the routes support this new name an overwhelming 92% of the time.

_______________________________________________________________

 

[font:Arial]pulled that right out my ass[/font]

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I had a prepared a long rebuttal post describing all the beta JH provided when he posted about his route cleaning efforts (which are definitely appreciated) at Beacon. Or how just two days ago he recommended a double set of HB Offsets for a Beacon rack. And how all media representation - topos, magazines, guides, forums - provides beta for climbers' knowledge. And how all of our climbing gear is a result of climbers feedback - beta - after their experiences.

Then my girlfriend saw what I was doing, boxed my ears, and told me to get a life and get a job.

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Love that woman! :lmao:

 

I've noticed that the best climbers show up occasionally on the net if at all. I suspect they are out climbing while the rest of us are running around chewing on each other but have been unable to verify this so far.

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