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octavius

falling on pro to learn better placement

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I'll do more research into the 2 rope method... I just don't see it as a big hassle as long as it is done right and setup bomber safe.

 

I'll have to say I don't like even the idea of this "practice" regardless of how you rig it. Again, the issue is with the hassle and judgement involved with pulling up enough slack in the top rope for it to only act as a backup to the lead line in a fall. That means for each faked lead fall you'd need to either be at a great rest or be on aid above the piece you want to "test". And because of the force involved in backing up a blown piece it means you have to use a grigri or knot on the top rope line and vice-versa for your lead line - again, the whole deal would be a contrived clusterf#ck, prone to misjudgment, and a royal pain in the ass. I'd really encourage you to either solo aid or just get yardage with partners instead.

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I'd really encourage you to either solo aid or just get yardage with partners instead.

 

only way to do it...pretty simple too...its not rocket science either, so don't be afraid...

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Not necessarily a bad idea.

 

Dru and JosephH are right about bounce-testing vs falling. How far are you planning to fall? It wold not be very useful to test on 3ft falls. And you wouldn't see what actually was wrong with the placements. Plus often times pro walks. So perhaps, I think kevbone was first, hang a TR, jug up placing pro and clipping another bogus rope in (tied to yourself as if leading) to try to repro cams walking/nuts falling out. Then rap the same TR from placement to placement inspecting and bounce-testing each.

 

Climbing instead of jugging is far better so you don't spend unrealistic time placing pro - that's were aiding is worse for revealing problems - given this is purely some preparation for "actual" climbing.

 

The self-belay TR setup was also described in one of R&I or Climbing w-in last 6mo.

 

And RuMR is correct too, you won't be doing this long, too boring, and there are almost as many different problematic placements as there are routes.

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As a new leader myself, I've never liked the idea of falling on gear, on purpose -- even if it's to test the gear or placements. I'm no hardman, and most of the leads in my ability do NOT have clean falls.

 

 

it all about the "no fall" climbing ethic. Just don't fall and we won't have any problems!

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G-Spotter mentions a good point of mechanical ascension devices being able to sever a rope under [shock] load; but remember that a prusik knot is capable of doing the same thing with lower energy.

 

Perhaps the thread of testing gear you are thinking of is from the Newbies forum "removing stoppers from rock"?

 

Many have mentioned the best place to learn to place gear is with a buddy with some educated and examined experience with leading on placed gear. Have this buddy belay you on top rope as you aid a pitch or two on clean aid. You will become very "intimate" as one advisor stated with your placements and then have your consulting/mentoring/you're buying pints for buddy clean the pitch and evaluate your placements. Didn't another person mention about getting out there?

 

Remember that we all have to go back to school, work, or the family at the end of the weekend so heroics isn't the place to learn gear placements. My old house backed onto the Little Smoke Bluffs in Squamish, and more than once I had stopped washing dishes or paying attention to my lovely wife because someone didn't take the classic route of learning about gear placements and the neglected patience to learn from a mentor or from a class to assist a broken individual.

 

Doesn't anyone read anymore? Freedom of the Hills is a given, get all the literature about the discipline that you are interested in and then learn the theory; and then study the practical under a accomplished individual...peoples egos lend themselves to assisting others...and then apply the two; then once you know the rules understand the why and why nots of those rules.

 

The best rack, of gear, that I saw was a set of different sized knots of webbing and a large wooden chock carved from a tree limb; and that wasn't learned in a book; video; or class; or contemporary climbers' repitoire. It came from learning from every source available to the highest standard.

 

Learn as much as you can...as they say in for a penny in for a pound. And since your whole experience will depend on how well you have initially learned how to place gear it is in you interest to learn everything that you can.

 

As they say, that's that lets move on.

 

 

 

 

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Sometimes I have to refresh my memory and go aid something. Solo is what I prefer just because I hate belaying a leader on aid. It takes forever.

Tie into an anchor on the ground. At Index I use trees or rocks. Set it up to hold an upward pull. Put two locking biners on your harness and tie a figure 8 in the rope giving yourself enough slck to climb to a logical place to put in a piece. Clip the rope to the piece just like leading.

Now pull up the loose end of the rope a little bit and tie another figure 8 loop. Again, giving yourself just enough slack to get to the next placement. Clip this to the second locking biner. Unclip the first loop and untie it. This way, you are always tied into a foolproof system. No rope shear or stripping from a solo device. No second guessing how you are going to land etc. It isn't cute or elegent but it is safe and simple.

Aiding is a great way to sharpen your placement skills. Almost every piece you place can be watched as you weight it. See how they move or not.

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when my eight year old daughter (now twenty) was taking lessons from profession guides/instructors,(you would know the names) they would set her up on loose top rope and she would place gear on a 'fake lead' using another rope with belay It was extemely effect teaching tool.

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its called mock leading, very common "first lead" technique. But (re: the title of this thread) it doesnt help you learn to place pro better because when on top-rope you (perhaps thankfully) are not exposed to the full repercussions of a fall.

 

The three techniques I've used to teach trad gear placement are:

 

1) First lead very easy stuff for my partner who is learning, have them second and pull the pro, then have them lead the route, placing the same pro in the same placements. Limit the routes to like 5.4 (Sabre comes to mind) and things can work out pretty well.

 

2) Find harder "one-move-wonder" routes still within the ability of the apprentice that are well protected and either pre-place for the apprentice or (because by this time the pro should be somewhat familiar) send the apprentice straight to the lions!

 

3) Aid climb. Aid climbing like no other discipline teaches one the intricacies of what pro really does under loads. Harder C-rated aid climbs make one fall on that pro fairly regularly. Figuring out the crux moves to Iron Horse, for example, can be a pretty good test of thin/small pro!

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I find it remarkable how closely the arguments in this latest thread replicate the ones in older thread started by Jammin.

 

I say go climb. You'll fall soon enough. If you put in enough gear, something's going to hold. :grin:

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I say go climb. You'll fall soon enough. If you put in enough gear, something's going to hold.

 

Nothing like training for an activity like doing the activity itself. What are those adages, "where there is rope, there is hope"? I've even heard some guys call to each other, "when in doubt, run it out...if not...sew it up and shut the @!*# up".

 

Play long enough, with eyes and mind open and you will learn the game.

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