Are the architects of the War on Terror in trouble

[foraker]

It'd be cool if Fairweather hadn't quit the discussion too.

 

I find it hard to believe anything constructive could be had from someone known to throw flaming petulant hissy fits.

 

 

[RedNose]

Sorry my mind has been elsewhere recently. This is news. Try to remember that I exist in a different vaccum.

 

This news from Iraq, via the Jawa Report, should be top story. But since Anna Nicole Smith died, it won't get the coverage it deserves:

 

Coalition forces in Iraq have delivered a series of stunning blows to al Qaeda in Iraq in the last 48 hours.

A key aide to Abu Ayyub al-Masri, the man who replaced Abu Musab al Zarqawi as the leader of al Qaeda in Iraq, has been captured south of Baghdad. As A.J. Strata notes, the trail to the al Qaeda leader is fresh: the captured aide admitted to meeting with al Masri yesterday.

 

Since Taji is north of Baghdad, these two al Qaeda IED cell leaders captured by the U.S. in West Taji are not the same as those above. That's four al Qaeda leaders captured.

 

But four is such a lonely number. A facilitator of foreign fighters was captured by the Iarqi Army on the Syrian border. And foreign fighters tend to mean al Qaeda.

 

Not to be outdone by the IA, the U.S. struck two houses where foreign fighters had gathered---13 jihadis dead. An "individual" associated with foreign fighter facilitation was in the targeted area.

 

But wait, that's not all. Coalition Forces conducted an air strike Wednesday targeting an al-Qaida in Iraq-related vehicle-borne improvised explosives devices network near Arab Jabour. Intelligence reports indicated that this network is responsible for a large and devastating number of VBIED attacks in the Baghdad area. They are also responsible for IED and sniper attacks conducted against the Iraqi people and Iraqi and Coalition Forces. Building destroyed, everyone inside presumably dead.

 

And another terrorist was captured in Taji. In addition to leading a bombing cell, he is also believed to be involved in taking Iraqis hostage and murdering them. Which would mean that he is either al Qaeda or one of the related organizations under the umbrella of the "Islamic State of Iraq".

 

So, we have 6 al Qaeda leaders captured, and possibly dozens more killed. All in the last 48 hours.

 

 

 

 

CENTCOM has details:

 

Coalition Forces conducted an air strike Wednesday targeting an al-Qaida in Iraq-related vehicle-borne improvised explosives devices network near Arab Jabour. Intelligence reports indicated that this network is responsible for a large and devastating number of VBIED attacks in the Baghdad area. They are also responsible for IED and sniper attacks conducted against the Iraqi people and Iraqi and Coalition Forces. As Coalition Forces approached the targeted building they came under intense enemy fire. Ground forces assessed seven suspected terrorists were in the targeted building. Coalition Forces determined the targets too hostile for ground troops and called for air support. Two precision guided munitions were dropped destroying the targeted building and an associated structure. Coalition Forces continue to tear apart the al-Qaida leadership inside Iraq. This operation significantly reduces this VBIED terrorist network's ability to operate, and increases the safety of all Iraqi citizens, Iraqi forces, and Iraq's Multi-National partners.

And more:

 

Coalition Forces killed an estimated 13 terrorists during an air strike Thursday morning targeting a senior foreign fighter facilitator northeast of Amiriya.

Intelligence reports indicated an individual associated with foreign fighter facilitation was in the targeted area. During the operation, Coalition Forces detained five suspected terrorists and found a cache including armor piercing ammunition. Information gained from the target area led Coalition Forces to two suspected foreign fighter safe houses where suspected terrorists were assembled. Coalition Forces observed the structures to confirm intelligence reports and engaged with precision guided munitions and rotary wing close air support, killing an estimated 13 terrorists.

 

Coalition Forces continue to dismantle the foreign fighter networks. This operation significantly reduces foreign fighter facilitators’ ability to operate inside Iraq.

 

 

And from MNF-I:

 

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE--

SUSPECTED SENIOR IED CELL LEADER DETAINED, TERRORIST SAFEHOUSE DESTROYED IN WEST TAJI

 

BAGHDAD, Iraq – Coalition Forces detained two suspected terrorists believed to have ties to an al-Qaida improvised explosive device cell during a raid Wednesday morning in West Taji.

 

Intelligence reports indicated one of the detainees has significant ties to a local IED cell and had connections to recent anti-Coalition Forces activities.

 

Ground forces entered the targeted building and detained the two suspected terrorists without incident. Upon searching the house, ground forces found evidence of explosives material hidden inside the building and buried around the exterior. They also found several weapons and materials commonly used to make IEDs.

 

In order to prevent the residence from being used for future sanctuary to terrorists, ground forces destroyed the building with strategically-placed charges. Before placing the charges, Ground forces escorted two women and nine children outside the house and to a neighbor’s home in order to ensure their safety.

 

ImageCoalition Forces are making progress dismantling the al-Qaida terrorist network inside Iraq. The capture of these detainees and the destruction of another terrorist sanctuary reduces the ability of the terrorist network to operate, and increases the safety of all Iraqi citizens, Iraqi forces and Iraq’s Multi-National partners

__________________

[RedNose]

I'd like to hear what rednose thinks about who has made money from all of this and whether that may have influenced policy decisions. It'd be cool if Fairweather hadn't quit the discussion too. I'm serious: do you guys think those who pull the strings are not in it for the money?

 

I read the quarterly earning report from Exxon Corp.

 

I think the underlying answer is hidden in plain sight. The origin is not. IMHO, the real architects of the war reside in the Kingdom. The House of Saud calls, the Crusader Army comes. They reasoned correctly that forcing American influence off of Saudi soil would cement their place by endearing them to an increasingly distrustful Muslim population, while forcing American geopolitical strategists to project US military power into Iraq to secure bases. This had the twofold purpose of driving the US into conflict with the hated Shiites, and allowing Saudi influence in OPEC to jack the prices up. The underlying reasoning being that "The US is making a move for the oilfields, we need to raise prices to teach them a lesson". Meanwhile rich Saudi investors pour money into Sunni militias who fight a proxy civil war with Iran on one side, and the US in the middle.

 

And you think bombing Mecca sends the wrong signal how?

 

If we developed one source of alternate energy that was sustainable and easily produced, we could send Arabia back to the middle ages in the space of one decade. I'd vote for that.

 

[RedNose]

The "BrainTrust" hard at work again I see. What latest and greatest government hating conspiracy are you all festering about now?

 

So, are you actually attempting to claim there was a shred of legitimacy around Fieth's or the OoSP's activities? Because if that's the case, Dorothy, you really need to click those red heels three times. It's exactly the sort of activities the right used to warn about before they all rolled over into government stooges...

 

Sorry, my intel gathering starts with my retina and ends with my brain stem telling me which strings to pull at that moment. What some think tank group in Washington D.C. has to do with me is nonexistent. That's my view. Now tell me, how does this affect YOU personally? When (IF) you were humping the triple canopy were you concerned about the scandals from the Phoenix Program? Just a different way to approach the issue is all.

 

Now that I am back home for a short break, I once again get to see firsthand just HOW affected by the war everyone is.

 

"Would you like a venti or a grande sir", "Can you believe that Anna died so tragically?"

[Crux]

As is the critical thinking you sometimes exhibit, the physiological sequence you describe for yourself is one of a person who is clinically brain dead. Yet I've no doubt that you fit right in with those people for whom you express contempt. Tell me, was it difficult to maintain civility when standing in line with people who appeared so shamelessly distanced from the truly important matters of the day?

 

At the coffee shop, people speak in response to the latest mainstream news and say, "How sad the story of Anna Nicole has turned out to be!" Meanwhile, in response to the latest report from the think-tank, you reflect, "Multinational forces of the coalition are victorious!"

 

Now, consider these facts: The death of Anna Nicole is real. The existence of the "Multinational Coalition" is not.

 

Room for cream, sir?

[tvashtarkatena]

If we developed one source of alternate energy that was sustainable and easily produced, we could send Arabia back to the middle ages in the space of one decade. I'd vote for that.

 

Y yo tambien.

[tvashtarkatena]

 

Now that I am back home for a short break, I once again get to see firsthand just HOW affected by the war everyone is.

 

 

Pub club anyone?

[RedNose]

As is the critical thinking you sometimes exhibit, the physiological sequence you describe for yourself is one of a person who is clinically brain dead. Yet I've no doubt that you fit right in with those people for whom you express contempt. Tell me, was it difficult to maintain civility when standing in line with people who appeared so shamelessly distanced from the truly important matters of the day?

 

At the coffee shop, people speak in response to the latest mainstream news and say, "How sad the story of Anna Nicole has turned out to be!" Meanwhile, in response to the latest report from the think-tank, you reflect, "Multinational forces of the coalition are victorious!"

 

Now, consider these facts: The death of Anna Nicole is real. The existence of the "Multinational Coalition" is not.

 

Room for cream, sir?

 

Did you think all day about what you were going to say here fucktard? I'm now going to return REDNOSE to the original owner so I don't have to listen to this shit from insignifiCUNT fuckers like you Crux.

 

Tman take it easy, good debating with you. JosephH I'm still waiting for unit designation from you. The 3rd time I've asked for it in 4 years. In my world we call that posing. MattP good subject, but the headcases I generally want to put the thumbsKrews to are coming out of the woodwork and we can generally agree have little tolerance for that kind of anonymous shit talking.

 

Later dudes. The war goes on despite the debate here.

[Crux]

No fish?

 

 

[JosephH]

Exactly what is it you're asking now or then?

[Crux]

I'm suggesting the delusions of grandeur are those of a fisher broken by a catch of no fish.

[fear_and_greed]

Coalition forces in Iraq have delivered a series of stunning blows to al Qaeda...

A facilitator of foreign fighters was captured by the Iarqi Army on the Syrian border. And foreign fighters tend to mean al Qaeda...

Not to be outdone by the IA, the U.S. struck two houses where foreign fighters had gathered---13 jihadis dead.

But wait, that's not all... Coalition Forces conducted an air strike Wednesday targeting...

Building destroyed, everyone inside presumably dead...

And another terrorist was captured in Taji...

So, we have 6 al Qaeda leaders captured, and possibly dozens more killed. All in the last 48 hours.

 

__________________

 

You should read "How to control the unwashed masses through Propaganda" By Geobbels, Himmler and Karl Rove. It would polish up your delivery a bit.

 

Did you believe Bush when he said "Mission Accomplished" too?

[RedNose]

I'm suggesting the delusions of grandeur are those of a fisher broken by a catch of no fish.

 

What exactly are you bringing to the conversation here? Nothing, and you are a complete waste of time.

[RedNose]

Joseph, I believed you claimed LRP team designation in a thread from 04, and when I inquired about your official unit I received nothing. This was in 04, and now again in 07. In my line of work claiming SPECOPS background without verification is tantamount to perjury even in a backwater forum like this one.

 

As for Crux and Fear_Greed here's my take on responses like your's. If you had climbed a route 150 times, knew it backwards and forwards, every inch of every hold, and a guy like Steve House came on here and told you that you were incorrect you would fold over at the stomach, genuflect in a submissive posture, and admit you were in fact wrong. However, when someone who has spent over 4 years at the war comes here to offer a different perspective from the factory motif, you go all subject matter expert based on some news reports you love to jack off to, and start offering up Neocon hate speech. Frankly I find it boring. I've never voted for Bush, was opposed to the war in Iraq, and served 8 years under Bill Clinton. Yet, some of you will continue to be as small minded as the people you continue to try and critique from the sidelines. "It's not the critic that counts"

 

So therefore, my short foray into your world here is over. It's a waste of time, and so are you.

 

Furthermore, Fear_and_Greed, since you are a Canadian with no vested interest in the war in Iraq, paying no taxes, suffering no heartache, or misfortune as a result of US policy, if I were a moderator here I'd tell you to shut your fucking pie-hole, and keep your ass over in Cafe Sensitivo where you belong.

 

I now return you to the RedNose actual.

[tvashtarkatena]

I read the quarterly earning report from Exxon Corp.

 

I think the underlying answer is hidden in plain sight. The origin is not. IMHO, the real architects of the war reside in the Kingdom. The House of Saud calls, the Crusader Army comes. They reasoned correctly that forcing American influence off of Saudi soil would cement their place by endearing them to an increasingly distrustful Muslim population, while forcing American geopolitical strategists to project US military power into Iraq to secure bases. This had the twofold purpose of driving the US into conflict with the hated Shiites, and allowing Saudi influence in OPEC to jack the prices up. The underlying reasoning being that "The US is making a move for the oilfields, we need to raise prices to teach them a lesson". Meanwhile rich Saudi investors pour money into Sunni militias who fight a proxy civil war with Iran on one side, and the US in the middle.

And you think bombing Mecca sends the wrong signal how?

My understanding is that the US military presence formerly in Saudi Arabia (after the 100 hour war was over) was primarily an airbase which has moved to Qatar. Iraq is a wholly new US presence altogether with vastly greater capabilities (than the post Desert Storm Saudi Arabian presence). The Saudis certainly wanted the Qatar move to appease their kooky population, but I'm not sure they wanted our invasion of Iraq. Saddam encapsulated and defanged? yes. But the US already did that 17 years ago. Iraq destabilized? no. After all, 10% of the Saudi's population is a troublemaking group of restless Shiites; it wouldn't be in the Saudi goverment's interests to poke a stick in their eye.

 

Raising oil prices requires a seamproof cartel. Find a weak link in the cartel and the price controls pop. Destabilization and the inter-regional conficts it re-ignites can only lead to a weaker, not stronger cartel. Prices have shot up, no doubt, but that probably has more to do with rising global demand, perceived or real proven crude reserve shortages, Middle Eastern supply uncertainty due to destabilization (here, your argument might fly, but I think the Saudis would consider the risks of fomenting open conflict too great compared to this benefit...remember, these fuckers DEFINE the term conservative) and the loss of refinement capacity due to Katrina.

 

As for bombing Mecca, I've already opined on that one.

 

I tend to view the invasion of Iraq more on WYSIWYG terms. I really believe it was primarily an ideologically driven war (Middle Eastern stabilization and, in some people's minds, democratic liberation through US hegemony) as viewed by it's architects, and a mix of ideology and strategic (secure the pipeline, threaten Iran) for it's executors.

 

I also think Bush Co thought the Iranians would follow the Libyan model of changing their tune once the bombs started dropping more than they have. Having said that, Iranians seem pretty tired of their leadership at this point, so a liberalization of that country from the bottom up (rather than top down, as in the case of Qaddafi), aided by the spector of US military action, is still possible.

 

I believe most wars are ideologically driven from the top, particularly at first. Military high command rarely pesters a national leader to start another war. From lebensraum to 'let freedom reign, or ring, or whatever', most wars start with the big, and usually stupid, idea that only flies in a theoretical universe that remains so far undiscovered. What drags these wars into the mire are underestimated forces on the ground such as nationalism, religious cultural unity, tribal loyalties, and the like.

Edited February 12, 2007 by tvashtarkatena

[sheaf_stout]

Amen.

 

isdhEDWXg4I

[dt_3pin]

Amen.

 

isdhEDWXg4I

 

america's finest . . . I don't understand why outstanding young men like that aren't winning the Iraqi peoples' hearts and minds.

[JosephH]

Joseph, I believed you claimed LRP team designation in a thread from 04, and when I inquired about your official unit I received nothing. This was in 04, and now again in 07. In my line of work claiming SPECOPS background without verification is tantamount to perjury even in a backwater forum like this one.

 

Well, once again, not sure whom I'm talking with, but both then now and several times I've related my role. At no point have I ever claimed to be SPECOPS. I was a navy combat photographer. In '72 my main job, most of the time, that year was flying with marine helo pilots into N. Vietnam looking for SAM sites for naval gunfire 'freedom train' runs into the beach at night (not to be confused with the 'Operation Freedom Train' the concurrent naval and AF air strikes). I flew missions from the DMZ to Haiphong and took part in the only raid on Haiphong Harbor. When I wasn't in the helo I was in the 5" turret at nights for the strikes due to a long string of 'personnel problems', or serving Admirals Robinson or Holloway when they were around. In '73 I was assigned off the line to the support the head of the Office Naval Intelligence / Pacific Fleet and served him personally producing his briefings to the combined Pacwest taskgroup - a daily briefing to a combined senior Army, Marine, Navy, and Air Force staffs (head of Pacfleet and a general from each of the other services onboard the USS Blue Ridge, the pac intel/command ship). I saw the same daily intel the senior staffs saw from the DIA, CIA, NSA, and all the other defense intel agencies as well as the Brits, Japanese, Korean, and a smattering of French intel. If the senior combined staff saw it, I saw it. The ONI commander for some reason took a liking to me and sometimes rehearsed his briefs with me - go figure. Again, never was or claimed to be SPECOPS, but I had complete access to what was going on and have a fairly sound understanding of how shit happens - then and now. In particular, little ditties like General Van Riper and the 2002 Millenium Challenge tell me little at all has changed at the command / staff levels relative to how things get played out.

[sheaf_stout]

REMF

[sheaf_stout]

Amen.

 

america's finest . . . I don't understand why outstanding young men like that aren't winning the Iraqi peoples' hearts and minds.

 

 

There is a message in there just for people like you.

[foraker]

REMF

 

harsh

[JosephH]

REMF

 

Right, if that's your read on '72 you're pretty fucking stupid. I grew up running loose and hunting more or less every day and I'd have traded what I did, the infested ratholes, and the total lack of personal control over my fate it entailed, for a grunt role on the ground in-country in the South any day of the week. You have no idea how many chopper crews or gun crews we lost that year. How many [hostile] flights over North Vietnam did you pull? I logged a bunch of them and did over four hundred shore bombardments in the turret in a year-long, 6-on-6-off rotation at a time when 5" mounts were going off like so much popcorn. I spent the entire year in a band from two miles off shore to four miles onshore from the Quang Tri to north to Haiphong - fuck you asshole - that second year, I earned it...

[sheaf_stout]

and thin skinned too...

 

I preferred to look my enemy in the eye just before I put him in the sights. It's more personal that way. I didn't have the luxury of hanging with the brass in the rear with the gear when duty called. I can respect your service but I don't admire it. Tell me. Did you take more photos of the admirals stepping off those choppers and onto safe ground to dine on caviar, or of SAM sights?

 

At least we didn't get Kerry in there to run this war. He doesn't have any nutsacks to get anything done. God help us all if Hitlary gets elected.

 

The media is too busy trying to crush this war with their propaganda than to actually get in there where it is dangerous and report something truthful and relevant. I really like their firsthand accound reporting. They should take a tip from someone like this fellow. You wanna talk about treason. Shit, half of CNN and NYT could be considered treasonous reporters. Why would I believe a word from those yellowbacks?

 

Many Americans act and protest in outrage for sacrifices they are not even bearing. Others here talk about winning hearts and minds. They don't know what hearts and minds means, except what some professor conveyed to them in some university class. Some professor who probably dodged the draft anyway.. Real sacrifices are being made by those troops in that video patrolling MSRs day in and day out. Or the marines throwing grenades into rooms and guarding checkpoints for shitty pay. All this while some bitches at home are undermining the whole effort and complaining. Your newly elected liberal congress is busy trying mark themselves as heroes by stopping the war. Political stunts no doubt... People like you are are too busy reading about Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt to care about the war. It's pathetic to come here and read all of this whining.

 

I hope we leave Iraq with a big bang. I think of it as a way to let that part of the world know we're ready if they come knocking later on.

 

Oh yeah.. I love the whole idea of bankrupting those fuckheads in the middle east by moving to alternative fuels... When their oil and money dries up they can have enjoy their filthy, worthless sandpits.

[JosephH]

and thin skinned too...

 

I preferred to look my enemy in the eye just before I put him in the sights. It's more personal that way.

No shit, as a hunter so did I, my point exactly - but my lot was loading a 5" gun, where you couldn't even see outside the smoking box you were in. We were loading shells and powders made in 1938 that were blowing up mounts right and left. We facelessly killed any number of civilians over that year primarily due to bad targeting by our gunnery officers.

 

I didn't have the luxury of hanging with the brass in the rear with the gear when duty called. I can respect your service but I don't admire it.

In '72 we were never in the 'rear' - again, we were always within three miles of the North Vietnamese beach and usually .25-.5 miles off the beach and taking mortar rounds and light arms fire half the time.

 

Tell me. Did you take more photos of the admirals stepping off those choppers and onto safe ground to dine on caviar, or of SAM sights?

In the '72 there was damn little of that type of photography going, though I did manage to take the last picture of Adm. Robinson alive the day before he and the only other Adm. killed in the war both died when their helo missed the landing and tipped into the fantail just below our helo pad one night in rough seas. The rotor turned to shrapnel almost killing about fourteen us doing the op outright had we not dived behind the missile ejectors or overboard. We lost a few folks from the helo and one of us that night who were never recovered given the conditions. In '73 there was nothing but intel briefs.

 

As for the rest of your post - the only draft dodgers and treasonous felons so far have been inhabiting the Whitehouse, the Executive Mansion, and the Pentagon. The military incompetence of everyone involved has been beyond belief. This crew of felons has relentlessly screwed the military at every turn not to mention dismantling the Guard and Reserve system. But hey, maybe you're another merc, I mean contractor, making out big time and couldn't really give a fuck...

 

=============================================================

The incompetent cheerleaders for war (basically the entire right...)

=============================================================

George W. Bush -- family connections to get into the Air National Guard then "deserted" his post for two years.

None of George W. Bush's three brothers, Jeb, Marvin, or Neil served.

Dick Cheney -- sought graduate school deferment, (too smart to die).

Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as flight instructor.

Kenneth Starr : sought deferment (for psoriasis).

Ted Olson, (Starr's assistand, and since Solictor General)

Bill Bennett : sought graduate school deferment, (too smart to die).

Arnold Schwarzenegger: AWOL from Austrian army base.

Karl Rove: did not serve.

Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.

Richard Perle: did not serve.

Douglas Feith: did not serve.

Eliot Abrams: did not serve.

Ari Fleischer: did not serve.

Andrew Card: did not serve.

Ken Adelman: did not serve.

Don Evans: did not serve.

Michael Ledeen: did not serve.

Elliott Abrams: did not serve.

John Bolton: did not serve.

Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.

George Pataki: did not serve.

Kenneth Starr: did not serve.

John G. Roberts, Jr.: did not serve.

Samuel Alito: did not serve.

Antonin Scalia: did not serve.

Clarence Thomas: did not serve.

Trent Lott : avoided the draft, did not serve.

Bill Frist: did not serve.

John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments, to teach business.

Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. "Bad knee" He defeated tripelegic Democratic war hero Max Cleland by questioning his patriotism!

Don Nickles: did not serve.

Mitch McConnell: did not serve.

Rick Santorum: did not serve.

Richard Shelby: did not serve.

Phil Gramm: did not serve.

Spencer Abraham: did not serve.

Jon Kyl: did not serve.

John Engler: did not serve.

Newt Gingrich -- sought graduate school deferment, (too smart to die).

Dick Armey - avoided the draft, did not serve.

Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve.

John A. Boehner - did not serve.

Jack Kemp: did not serve. "Knee problem," but played in NFL for 8 years.

Roy Blunt: did not serve.

Bob Ney: did not serve.

David Dreier: did not serve.

Tim Hutchison: did not serve.

Christopher Cox: did not serve.

Dana Rohrabacher: did not serve.

John M. McHugh: did not serve.

JC Watts: did not serve.

Vin Weber: did not serve.

Bob Barr: did not serve.

Mark Souder: did not serve.

Walter Jones: did not serve.

Katherine Harris: did not serve. .

Rush Limbaugh -- sought deferment (because of a cyst on his tail end).

George Will -- sought graduate school deferment, (too smart to die).

Pat Buchanan -- sought deferment (for bad knee).

Pat Robertson -- his US Senator father got him out of Korea as soon as the shooting began.

John Wayne -- sought deferment (to further acting career).

Sean Hannity: did not serve.

Bill O'Reilly: did not serve.

Chris Matthews: did not serve.

Matt Drudge: did not serve.

Steve Forbes: did not serve.

Tony Snow: did not serve.

Michael "Savage" Weiner: did not serve.

Brit Hume: did not serve.

Roger Ailes: did not serve.

Paul Gigot: did not serve.

Bill Kristol: did not serve.

Ralph Reed: did not serve.

Michael Medved: did not serve.

Charlie Daniels: did not serve.

Anne Coulter: did not serve.

Jerry Falwell: did not serve.

Alan Keyes : did not serve.

 

- The lot are an embarassment to everyone who is or has served for us from Desert Storm on...

[RedNose]

JosephH-Thanks for shedding some light on your service. I think I had you confused with another guy. Adios.