billcoe Posted January 22, 2007 Posted January 22, 2007 My question is: What the hell is G rated cleavage? G rated cleavage! Sorry, but I see that as "B" rated cleaveage, as in Beautiful. Thats my take on it - it's an individual thing I'm sure. Some may find it "U" rated for UNbeliveable. One more thing: Max, could you check your link? http://www.redhotknobslobbers.com doesn't seem to be working......... Maybe it's the rush of all the CC.comers heading over there and overloading the site though........ Quote
pink_chalk Posted January 22, 2007 Posted January 22, 2007 Like I said, where in the original topic does he mention selling product and what product is it? I think he wants to sell t-shirts and the image itself... Quote
sexual_chocolate Posted January 22, 2007 Posted January 22, 2007 Very important to show reality juxtaposing artifice! mmmmm nothing like a natural beauty! Quote
kevbone Posted January 22, 2007 Posted January 22, 2007 (edited) Is it wrong of me if I find her sexy? Edited January 22, 2007 by kevbone Quote
dmuja Posted January 22, 2007 Posted January 22, 2007 Procreating is natural Nature is largely about procreating As long as we continue to be bio-creatures our natural urges to procreate will also continue to manifest in however many and varied ways we choose to interpret them. It is pointless to attempt a suppression of sexual urges, they are integral to the very biology and psychology of us all. The real problem is not the inherent impulse toward "who/what we find attractive", the real problem is (simply put) pre-judging abilities and worth based on appearance alone, and then not questioning the prejudgment. Feminism of the 60's-70's didn't get this and took it too far calling the very impulse itself "wrong". Thats why there was a sound rejection of that kind of feminism in the 90's especially by young women. I much prefer todays feminists, strong, independent and owning their sexuality. Quote
kevbone Posted January 22, 2007 Posted January 22, 2007 (edited) I think he wants to sell t-shirts and the image itself... So if he wants to sell image then the girl/model he is looking for is important. Not just the tee shirt. Edited January 22, 2007 by kevbone Quote
minx Posted January 22, 2007 Posted January 22, 2007 I can't help but notice whenever I'm in Europe that the billboards and adverts show people who look quite normal. This makes more sense to me than the plastipeople we use here. but archie, you've seen the people in Europe and elsewhere--their normal is not 30% of the population being obese. maybe we have a problem in the US of identifying normal. a) so many people are grossly overweight and out of shape that it seems "normal". particularly to those who are only moderately over weight and out of shape. and b) the idealized version of both men and women as so pervaded the media that it seems ubiquitous and "normal". Perhaps we so much of both extremes that we don't have any perspective on "normal". Caroline-- I really respect your opinion on the topic. I disagree to some degree though. I don't think anyone of either gender should be forced into any particular gender specific role. h/e i believe that there are certain traits that are more common in each gender. i think it's OK to acknowledge that there are certain personality traits that tend to be unique to each gender. this may not be true for the individual. people should explore whichever and whatever roles they want to take in their lives, relationships and activities. i just don't think it's realistic to pretend their aren't differences. men and women are different in more ways than just anatomy. i think that's pretty cool. the men i spend time with don't turn to me for a band-aid but i am the one that always remembers to bring them. it's all a matter of how you define your relationship with those you spend time with. by all means, pass on being the model for the bikini shoot but don't judge a woman that values that. i know plenty of women who know exactly what they're doing when they're using their good looks to make money. they're not dumb. who is getting used the woman who makes money modeling, or the guy who is paying for it? it's up to her to negotiate a good deal. Quote
carolyn Posted January 22, 2007 Author Posted January 22, 2007 I don't think anyone of either gender should be forced into any particular gender specific role. h/e i believe that there are certain traits that are more common in each gender. i think it's OK to acknowledge that there are certain personality traits that tend to be unique to each gender. this may not be true for the individual. people should explore whichever and whatever roles they want to take in their lives, relationships and activities. i just don't think it's realistic to pretend their aren't differences. Very well put! I agree completely. Im not suggesting to deny who you. Im just putting out there of the possibility to honor both sides (masculine and feminine) of your being. An example might be how I always thought I had to be like the boys to climb with them and be taken seriously. Well, as time has gone by I have realized I can still be a girl. I like the color pink. Always have. Probably always will. So my ice tools are covered in pink skate board tape. Its not so much to make a statement. Rather, I LIKE them that way. They are more fun to look at. Years ago I would never done that because that would be too "girlie" and I might lose respect, climbing partners, etc. I've found it hasnt changed a thing. There are numerous other examples of honoring my femininity while participating in what might still be considered a male dominated activity. THere are really two topics going on here 1. Gender roles 2. Advertising images that focus on the body and may/may not be destructive. They do both meld together. Hey Minx- In no way do I want to imply that anyone who would model like this is stupid. In fact, they may be the smarter one to bank on such an opportunity. Quote
carolyn Posted January 22, 2007 Author Posted January 22, 2007 I just want to add... Thanks to those who are offering there thoughts. As with most value related topics, there is no definate answer. Only opinions based off of each individuals different experiences. I totally respect and appreciate that! Quote
high_on_rock Posted January 22, 2007 Posted January 22, 2007 The photos all seem to be in good taste to me. Pretty quick with the "pervert" label. E Quote
minx Posted January 22, 2007 Posted January 22, 2007 The photos all seem to be in good taste to me. Pretty quick with the "pervert" label. E in carolyn's defense, my first instinct was the same as hers "creepy". then i thought about it a little more. it may actually be creepy but then again the guy could just be using the internet as a tool. or maybe he is a tool. i don't think that men in general can understand what sets of a woman's "creep" radar. we don't read a lot of news stories about men who were abducted by some psycho chick. Quote
sprocket Posted January 22, 2007 Posted January 22, 2007 Saw this in the morning paper, found it a bit creepy. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003535398_coffeegirls22e.html Just curious, if an attractive woman, intelligent or not, decides to use her looks as a commodity, doesn't that have the effect, intended or not, of making a commodity of all women's looks? Quote
carolyn Posted January 22, 2007 Author Posted January 22, 2007 I found this article while looking for the initial research on this particular topic. I havent read all of it, but thought it was interesting none the less. Its long. Gender Differences in Wayfinding Strategies Abstract measures of spatial ability, such as mental rotation, have produced the largest and most consistent gender differences (favoring males) in the area of cognition (Halpern, 2000; Linn & Petersen, 1985, 1986). Research interest has recently focused on whether these gender differences in spatial ability have implications for real world behavior, such as finding one's way in the physical environment. One possible implication of gender differences in spatial ability is that women and men may differ in success at finding destinations in three-dimensional environments. Some researchers have found that men are more efficient at finding destinations: men were faster than women at locating targets with the aid of a map and compass in a military orienteering test (Malinowski, 2001) and faster at locating a hidden platform in a computer-simulated maze (Astur, Ortiz, & Sutherland, 1998). However, in another study using a computer-simulated maze, men were faster at finding the target only when landmarks present during training were removed or randomly presented during testing; no gender difference was evident when landmarks remained stable (Sandstrom, Kaufman, & Huettel, 1998). Yet, in another study, women and men were found to be equally efficient in finding their way to a destination in a building, even though men were more accurate in pointing toward the destination before starting out (Lawton, Charleston, & Zie les, 1996). Another possible implication of gender differences in spatial ability is that women and men may differ in strategies for finding a destination. Women are more likely than men to report that they rely on landmark-based route information, whereas men are more likely to report that they orient to global reference points, such as the cardinal directions (North, South, East, West) or the position of the sun in the sky (Lawton, 1994, 1996). A difference in type of spatial information preferred is also seen in the way people give directions to others. Women tend to refer more often than men to landmarks, whereas men refer more often than women to the cardinal directions (Dabbs, Chang, Strong, & Milun, 1998; Denis, 1997; Harrell, Bowlby, & Hall-Hoffarth, 2000; Lawton, 2001; Miller & Santoni, 1986; Montello, Lovelace, Golledge, & Self, 1999; Schmitz, 1997; Ward, Newcombe, & Overton, 1986). Also, women tend to be better at remembering landmarks and their locations (Eals & Silverman, 1994; Galea & Kimura, 1993; Montello et al., 1999; Silverman & Eals, 1992). Men, on the other hand, tend to be more accurate at pointing in the direction of unseen landmarks (Bryant, 1982; Holding & Holding, 1989; Lawton, 1996; Lawton et al., 1996; Lawton & Morrin, 1999), although not all researchers have found a gender difference in pointing accuracy (Golledge, Dougherty, & Bell, 1995; Golledge, Ruggles, Pellegrino, & Gale, 1993; Montello & Pick, 1993; Sadalla & Montello, 1989). Yet another possible implication of gender differences in spatial ability is that women and men may differ in the way they feel about performing tasks that appear to require a "sense of direction." Women tend to report a higher level of anxiety than do men about performing tasks such as trying a new shortcut without the aid of a map or figuring out which way to turn when emerging from a parking garage (Lawton, 1994, 1996). Higher levels of environmental confusion are reported by women than by men (LaGrone, 1969), and women perceive wayfinding while driving to be more difficult than do men (Burns, 1998). Women reported less confidence than men when asked to draw maps of a floor plan (O'Laughlin & Brubaker, 1998) and greater feelings of uncertainty about wayfinding in a building (Lawton et al., 1996), despite the fact that actual performance did not differ between the genders in these two studies. Thus, evidence suggests that gender differences occur not only in performance on laboratory tests of spatial ability, but also in behaviors and feelings related to navigation in the three-dimensional world. To what extent might experiential factors play a role in these gender differences? In a previous study, the tendency for both women and men to refer to North, South, East, and West when giving directions depended on the region of the United States in which they lived, although overall men tended to refer to the cardinal directions more than did women, regardless of region (Lawton, 2001). In the current research, we extend the investigation of environmental influences by examining the possible role of social and cultural factors in gender differences in wayfinding strategy preference and wayfinding anxiety. One factor that may contribute to gender differences in wayfinding strategy and anxiety is differences in early wayfinding experience. A number of findings indicate that girls are given less freedom to explore the outside environment than are boys during childhood and early adolescence. Boys range further from home in their neighborhoods than do girls (Anderson & Tindall, 1972; Hart, 1979; Herman, Hems, & Cohen, 1987; Matthews, 1986; Webley, 1981), and boys are less likely than girls to be chaperoned by adults when visiting outside places, such as movie theaters or parks, or when riding the bus (Medrich, Roizen, Rubin, & Buckley, 1982; Newson & Newson, 1987). Even in technologically less developed cultures, boys range further from home than do girls in both free-time activities and assigned chores, such as cattle herding (Edwards, 2000; Munroe & Munroe, 1971, 1997; Nerlove, Munroe, & Munroe, 1971). Greater childhood experience in the outside environment may lead men to feel more comfortable than women in performing wayfinding tasks, and may also help to explain the gender difference in wayfinding strategy preference. When traversing a wide-ranging area, orienting to global reference points (e.g., North) is likely to be helpful because, unlike landmarks, global referenc e points remain fixed across locales. Therefore, boys may be more likely to develop an orientation wayfinding strategy because of their wayfinding experience further from home. Restrictions on the freedom of girls in the outdoor environment may result from parents' concern about safety risks for their daughters. Newson and Newson (1987) found that more mothers of girls than boys said they worried when their children were outside the home, especially about the possibility of sexual molestation. This theme of female vulnerability is reflected in research on fear of crime among adults, which is typically measured by rating how safe one feels when outside alone at night. Women consistently report a greater fear of crime than do men (Box, Hale, & Andrews, 1988; Braungart, Braungart, & Hoyer, 1980; Maxfield, 1987; Riger & Gordon, 1981; Weinrath & Gartrell, 1996), particularly violent personal crime (Haghighi & Sorenson, 1996; LaGrange & Ferraro, 1989; Warr, 1984). Women perceive their risk of being attacked by a stranger as significantly higher than do men, and both women and men see the likelihood of stranger attack as higher for the average woman than for the average man (Harris & Mille r, 2000), despite the fact that risk of homicide by strangers is far lower for women than for men (Kellerman & Mercy, 1992). Nevertheless, the perception of greater vulnerability for women may lead parents to restrict the wayfinding experience of their daughters more than of their sons, and may cause women to be more anxious than men about wayfinding, particularly in unfamiliar and possibly unsafe areas. Research across cultures that differ in crime rate might help to clarify whether gender differences in wayfinding strategies and anxiety are attributable to variables such as personal safety concern and childhood wayfinding experience. Although much of the research on gender differences in wayfinding has been conducted in the United States, several studies suggest that gender differences in wayfinding strategies and wayfinding anxiety may exist in other countries as well. In studies with German adolescents and adults, Schmitz (1997, 1999) found that women preferred to include landmark information when describing a maze or a route traveled in a building, and this preference was associated with anxiety about getting lost. Burns (1998) surveyed drivers in Britain and found women more likely than men to report difficulty in wayfinding. However, no researchers have yet directly compared such gender differences across cultures, and it is not clear whether these gender differences would be of equal magnitude across cultures. In the current studies, we compared wayfinding strategies and wayfinding anxiety in college students from two cities: one in central Hungary, and other in the midwestern United States. Although the cities were approximately equivalent in population size, there was a much higher rate of personal crime in the American city (mean per year, 1990-1999, in the American and Hungarian cities, respectively: 24 vs. 4.5 homicides; 358.9 vs. 190 assaults; 108.7 vs. 7.5 rapes; 526.7 vs. 50.2 robberies; Central Statistical Office of Hungarian Government, 1990-1999; Federal Bureau of Investigation, 1990-1999). A high crime rate may increase concern for personal safety and lead to greater anxiety about becoming lost in unfamiliar and potentially dangerous areas. Therefore, it was hypothesized that American participants would report greater wayfinding anxiety than would Hungarian participants. It was also of interest to determine whether gender differences in wayfinding strategy preferences and wayfinding anxiety, previously found in the United States, would also be found in Hungary. Quote
kevbone Posted January 22, 2007 Posted January 22, 2007 Saw this in the morning paper, found it a bit creepy. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003535398_coffeegirls22e.html Just curious, if an attractive woman, intelligent or not, decides to use her looks as a commodity, doesn't that have the effect, intended or not, of making a commodity of all women's looks? Wow….thats great. There should be more of those coffee shops around here. I know what you’re going to say. Kevbone must be a pervert. Well excccuuuusssseee me. Just because I like to look at beautiful ladies makes me a bad guy? I don’t think so. If you don’t like being served coffee from a dominatrix……then DON’T GO THERE. But you go no business telling me not too! Its called America baby! Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted January 22, 2007 Posted January 22, 2007 (edited) tvash- modeling is usually used to sell a product, right? So, why make the persons body the focus rather than the product? Ive mentioned before, this doesnt only apply to females. Men get put in this position as well. And, from both my personal and professional experience, I see how damaging it can be when advertising or a job focuses more on the persons body than the product or necessary skill. The subliminal messages can be incredibly destructive. Commerce and admiring the human form are probably as old as our species. It should be no surprise that the two were combined, probably many thousands of years ago, each to enhance the other. Those involved in it do so willingly. There's really nothing you can do about it other than to ignore those advertisements that offend you, and appropriately so, because what offends you may be beautiful, exciting, or hilarious to others. I personally like to admire attractive women, in or out of advertisements. I think that, rather than scrutinizing a society that allows this kind of thing, you might look inward, at your reaction to it, instead. There in lies the source of your offense. And sweet Jebus, turn your TV off! I do have a problem with billboards and overly large signs, not for their content, but for their scenic impact. My intention is not to 'dictate' with the things I have said. It's more or less to explain why a request as the one above might not be appropriate. Appropriate for whom? This paragraph is a contradiction. If you feel the request is inappropriate for you, ignore it and let others make their own choice. Don't get stuck in a role just because that is what society has always done. Of course, if thats the role you prefer, I see nothing wrong with that either. Another contradiction. Don't do this (a proscription), unless you want to, then it's OK (an acceptance). I'm left wondering what, exactly, your message is in all of this? Edited January 22, 2007 by tvashtarkatena Quote
Sherri Posted January 22, 2007 Posted January 22, 2007 The photos all seem to be in good taste i don't think that men in general can understand what sets of a woman's "creep" radar. we don't read a lot of news stories about men who were abducted by some psycho chick. Good point, Minx. But do you really think some men would mind being abducted by a psycho chick posing as a steamy barista or as a sham photographer who wanted to treat their bodies as a "commodity"? Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted January 22, 2007 Posted January 22, 2007 But do you really think some men would mind being abducted by a psycho chick posing as a steamy barista or as a sham photographer who wanted to treat their bodies as a "commodity"? The inscrutible relationship between our psyche and anatomy might make such an arrangement somewhat dissappointing for the abductor. Quote
carolyn Posted January 22, 2007 Author Posted January 22, 2007 tvash- addressing being appropriate or not - I struggle knowing that SOME young girls and even women look at a photo of a climber (just an example) half naked, then possibly believe that is how THEY have to look in order to be 'good'. Addressing my message in all of this - The hell if I know! Im just starting to sort all of this out myself and working on putting words to my thoughts (which Ive always struggled with anyway). Where is that fine line between freedom of expression and choice regarding ones body and having it be detrimental to SOME who are exposed to it? Part of that I believe has to do with building confidence and acceptance in oneself, as not to be influenced by others choices. When you have that, I suppose you are able to be less affected by the choices others make. TV-whats that? Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted January 22, 2007 Posted January 22, 2007 tvash- addressing being appropriate or not - I struggle knowing that SOME young girls and even women look at a photo of a climber (just an example) half naked, then possibly believe that is how THEY have to look in order to be 'good'. You'd probably get more results taking it up with their parents rather than society at large. Where is that fine line between freedom of expression and choice regarding ones body and having it be detrimental to SOME who are exposed to it? Part of that I believe has to do with building confidence and acceptance in oneself, as not to be influenced by others choices. When you have that, I suppose you are able to be less affected by the choices others make. I think you just answered your own question. The fine line is within the individual observer, as it should be in a free society. Remember, your offense might be my celebration. TV-whats that? The first two letters of the coolest avatar on the web. Quote
Sherri Posted January 22, 2007 Posted January 22, 2007 But do you really think some men would mind being abducted by a psycho chick posing as a steamy barista or as a sham photographer who wanted to treat their bodies as a "commodity"? The inscrutible relationship between our psyche and anatomy might make such an arrangement somewhat dissappointing for the abductor. Only if she made the GUY wear the lingerie and serve the espresso. Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted January 22, 2007 Posted January 22, 2007 Some guys would do it with or without abductor. As long as the abduction is between two consenting adults, I'm all for it. Quote
kevbone Posted January 22, 2007 Posted January 22, 2007 As long as the abduction is between two consenting adults, I'm all for it. Quote
dmuja Posted January 22, 2007 Posted January 22, 2007 Somewhere in the midst of all this retro-70's ish over femo-analyzing crap I have suddenly become out of touch with my inner maleness. It shouldN'T be like this! Ladies and gentlemen, lets get it together p--l--e--a--s--e! I think the best thing for ALL OF US to do at this point is to purify our souls, ask forgiveness from Mother Gaia and surf some porn. Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted January 22, 2007 Posted January 22, 2007 A good schtupping usually frees one from the bonds of dogma, at least for a time. Quote
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