The most important course is never taught.

[brian_m]

"the people who sumitted everest last year and left someone die on the route failed."

 

Put yourself in their shoes... Yourself, tired, hypoxic and near your personal limit, at 28,500 ft; what would/could you have done to help a semi-conscious dying man?

It is easy to claim that we would perform a rescue... but logically thought through, perhaps the safest action is to not endanger anyone else's lives in a rescue attempt that is really only a prolonged body recovery.

Risk a lot to save a lot... risk nothing to save what is already lost.

[dmuja]

?

 

Umm..D*a*n Mazur and co were tired, hypoxic, near their personal limt at 28,500+ ft. I Don't think he (they) thought a rescue of Lincoln Hall would be easy or even safe for that matter, none the less they did it, and lo and behold, it turned out NOT to be a "body recovery"

 

What I wonder though is why you would trade your morality ("humanity" might be a better word) for a chance to bag a summit - even "that" summit? IE if its that bad, why even attempt to go?

 

Guess in the long run, you make your choices and have to live with em.

Edited December 31, 2006 by dmuja

[Buckaroo]

Expanding on your valid thought... would be the technique of downclimbing. Does everyone train for that also? How many people do you see downclimbing in the gym? Downclimbing is in some ways harder but not as studied by most.

 

Agree too with everyone's point about knowing the easier descent before doing the hard route. And if there is an easier descent then when on the hard route at some point "retreating" means going over the top to the easy descent.

 

Backing off does carry a stigma although maybe not as bad as you imply. For instance I don't think "2nd Descent" used gear shop, or "Retreat" climbing mag would work out too good.

[texplorer]

dmuja,

 

I think that most who attempt Sagarmatha have already lost their morality. If you don't already know that above a certain point on that mountain that its every man for himself then you need to pick a few books on the subject. I generally agree with your morality points but everest is sort of a different beast as it attracts the novice to a place where even the experienced occasionally succumb.

[Jedi]

I thought retreating, as painful as it can be, is as natural (and can as difficult) as going up.

I've had people (too many) look at me and say, "I'm not comfortable, I want to go down, I want to go home." Or just want to go climb something easier or shorter.

The main objective, at that point, is getting everyone safe and sound.

 

When you look at a route, you first look at the topo, read the description or scope out how to get up it. Then look at how you you get off it. Many routes, you can rap down it (it might even require it.

You have to "retreat" from the summit, right?

 

Anyway, I have to say retreating from Peak 11,520 (AAJ page 178) in 2005 was hard. I had hiked 4 miles up a crevassed glacier, soloed 2,100'+ of mostly ice with 200' of tatered rope, 2 screws and no bivy gear. spin drift, increasing clouds & snow as the day continued and glove shells frozen in the shape of my axe shafts.

Questions running through my mind:

When should I turn around?

Am I in too deep?

How many rappels to the shrund?

What if a storm rolls in?

If I fell, how many days would pass before anyone looked for me?

If I fell, would I survive?

When is the angle going to ease up?

Have I gone too far?

If this is a FA, what will I name it?

I wondered if anyone has been to the summit?

What am I doing up here alone?

etc......yadd yadda....

 

It was amazing!

 

Then, I had to talk myself down. "OK, I am starting to get tired. I need to save some juice for the downclimb."

I was seeing less and less of the Tokositna.

"Can I get back to Huntington in near white conditions?"

 

I looked up one last time. I knew the terrain would ease up in 200'. I turned the show around. I rapped 90'. "Fuck this is going to slow!"

I downclimbed several hundred feet of HARD blue ice. rapped 90' again. downclimbed to just above the mixed section above the shrund and rapped 90' over the shrund.

Relief washed over me. I found my little cashe and made water and ate. 9 hours on the face.

 

I knew time was wasting. I had to get the 4 miles back to camp. Losing 1100' in elevation and having to hike 1000' up to the tent. It was time to retreat again.

The snow was falling harder and the clouds had rolled in. I knew which way to go. I just could not see it.

I would stare at the white and my previous trail would appear. I would take off. It would nearly shut down and I would stand around waiting for the trail, which the new snow made harder to see, to appear. The crevasse field was the hardest to get through. I took a couple wrong turns will little visibilty.

15 hours after leaving the tent, I was back.

 

We got 12" of new snow that night.

 

Probably my least regretable retreat but most painful.

 

Later I would see pictures of the summit ridge. There is a picture of snow covered crevasse (within 100' of the summit). I would not crossed it alone so I would not have made the summit if I had made it to the summit ridge.

 

Jedi

 

 

[dreimer]

As a first post, I thought I'd chime in...

 

From the complete OUTSIDE looking in, as I have NEVER climbed anything more than the wall in the Supermall, it seems to me that some on the climb (The Lebanese guy) actually stopped, and tried to offer some sort of assistance for over an hour. It was then that the lead dude convinced him to continue, and leave the guy, so as to save himself. Better to have 1 dead than 2?

 

I would like to think that I would try to assist as best I could, to the point where I felt I needed to save myself, or someone that was thinking more clearly convinced me to save myself, or someone forced me down....That's what I "think" I would do....you never know how you are going to react in those situations until you are presented with them. Until you have passed a near death person at 28,500....then speculate.

 

By the way, Hello everyone! New here, so be nice!

"the people who sumitted everest last year and left someone die on the route failed."

 

Put yourself in their shoes... Yourself, tired, hypoxic and near your personal limit, at 28,500 ft; what would/could you have done to help a semi-conscious dying man?

It is easy to claim that we would perform a rescue... but logically thought through, perhaps the safest action is to not endanger anyone else's lives in a rescue attempt that is really only a prolonged body recovery.

Risk a lot to save a lot... risk nothing to save what is already lost.