Yes, another easterner gonna climb Rainier

[knelson]

He is not slamming anybody - not really.

 

If someone I didn't know came up to me after I got back from Denali on a guided climb (which I haven't, nor have any desire to do) and said "Well... you didn't really climb it since you went with a guide. I don't have as much respect for you as Billy Bob over there that went by himself and some buddies - even though he lost four fingers and six toes." can you guess which finger I'd be holding up in his face? I guess I'd consider it a slam. Even if he prefaced it with a lame "don't take any offense" disclaimer.

 

Sorry for the thread drift, but it guess it just kind of hit a nerve - as it did with others obviously - that someone thinks they should be able to tell someone else what they should and should not feel proud about. Especially when it's someone that's getting jazzed up about their climb this summer. Unless someone needs to stroke their own ego at the expense of others.

 

[Edit: Oh my... I just read the FWA thread in the climbing partners section, and a few others over on NWHikers. I hope you learn to respect the hills Jamin before they bite you in the ass.]

Edited January 10, 2007 by knelson

[Jamin]

I am sorry that you took offense guys. I would definitely have respect for anybody who does Denali, and I do have respect for anybody who has the desire to climb Rainier. The biggest beef I have with a guided climb is that it takes a good bit of the challenge out of climbing, and it makes Rainier little more than a long walk at high altitude. Why do you guys climb? Is it because you would like to get famous or is it because you like the idea of adventure. For me it is the latter. Having a guide belay you up the mountain takes a lot of adventure out of it all, doesn't it. However, in the end, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

And guys, I have had my rear end kicked in the mountains more times than I can count. This upcoming saturday, I will probably attempt to climb a peak in the Wallowas. There is absolutely no chance that I will make the summit, but I will try anyways. It should be a good time. Anybody want to come. Terrain is class 3.

Edited January 10, 2007 by Jamin

[knelson]

Why do you guys climb? Is it because you would like to get famous or is it because you like the idea of adventure. For me it is the latter. Having a guide belay you up the mountain takes a lot of adventure out of it all, doesn't it.

 

You can climb a mountain for whatever reason you want. We all have our reasons. But to assume your sense of "adventure" is the same motivator for everyone else, and should be the gauge as to whether or not they should be proud of themselves is just plain wrong.

 

I would definitely have respect for anybody who does Denali, and I do have respect for anybody who has the desire to climb Rainier.

 

Why is Denali any different? Wouldn't having a guide take the "adventure" out of it?

 

The biggest beef I have with a guided climb is that it takes a good bit of the challenge out of climbing, and it makes Rainier little more than a long walk at high altitude.

 

Hate to tell you, but depending on the route and the weather, Rainier IS just a long walk at somewhat high altitude... with or without a guide.

 

Yup... we'll agree to disagree. I just hope you learn some skills and lose the hubris before you seriously hurt yourself or others.

[ketch]

I am fascinated to see where threads drift on this board. The op was about hints and now it's a validity of guide thing. Who'd a thunk it. Mostly I tend to agree with couloir. Guides are facilitators of the trip. I haven't hired one in a while. But admit that several times I decided to do a route in a totally new area. I've hired a "certified partner" instead of taking my chances on a random local.

 

Maybe for one of the locals, that have good connections, a guide is a cheat or less than admirable. For someone to fess up that they are outside their relm of experience is definatly not.

[BirdDog]

Thread drift - is like spindrift only warmer?

 

There are a lot of things that take the adventure out of something - like requesting beta on LR. (Jammin's previous post.) Think of the challenge of climbing in the cascades in the '30 with no maps, no beta ...etc... Yes, going with a commercial guide takes out some challenge out of climbing, so does going with someone who has experience on a certain route; albeit it adds safety. For many folks not from the area hiring a guide is the most practical and safe way to enjoy a climb.

 

So, Earth n' Sky - come on out to Washington, hire a guide (check out Internation Mountain Guides or Alpine Ascent Int'l. as well as RMI) I would strongly suggest you spend a couple of days on the lower part (below about 8000') of Rainier to acclimatize prior to your ascent. You will enjoy the climb more, have a better chance of sumitting and garner all that huge amount of respect everyone will heap upon you. Good Luck

[dan_forester]

Do you have self arrest experience? Roped climbing experience?

Hey, Jamin, do you have figure-8 tying experience? Rapelling experience?

 

Don't be offended or anything.

[joblo7]

people hire guides to accomplish something they can't do on their own. if that's climbing a 'normal' on an easy mountain ,then he/she is not a' climber' but is 'climbing'.: or as twight puts it ,walking at altitude. now you cant compare that with a person who has dedicated his life to climbing and hires a guide/partner to climb a very difficult climb. both are pushing their limits and should feel pride in their transcendence but only one is a serious climber. there is a huge distinction between clients and climbers. the latter are guiding. many clients forget that difference when they talk to climbers after their summits.

climb on!

[John Brennan]

I am sorry that you took offense guys. I would definitely have respect for anybody who does Denali, and I do have respect for anybody who has the desire to climb Rainier. The biggest beef I have with a guided climb is that it takes a good bit of the challenge out of climbing, and it makes Rainier little more than a long walk at high altitude. Why do you guys climb? Is it because you would like to get famous or is it because you like the idea of adventure. For me it is the latter. Having a guide belay you up the mountain takes a lot of adventure out of it all, doesn't it. However, in the end, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

When I read your first post I thought you were a troll. I will assume your are not.

 

I agree that to lead a group is allot more work and requires allot more skill then being guided. However if you are not the leader I am not sure going unguided with skilled buddies is really any different (other then you save money and your buddies are probably not as well prepared to handle an emergency as trained guides who do this for a living). Especially on a well trodden boot path like the DC root of Rainier. I think the guide d vs. non guided skill difference is more important off the beaten path on other mountains, or lesser used routes on Rainier. Case and point last August I went with a guided party on the Emmons-Winthrop route. On the way to camp Sherman we encountered several unguided teams that reported they wandered far up on the mountain before turning back due to the route being busted up and crevasses melted out. I felt sick and stopped at camp Sherman and waited out the day. In talking to the Ranger there I think he said no one had summitted this route in the last 1-2 weeks. The rest of my team did the climb with the guides. The guides were able to find a route through the maze, 18 hours later they returned to Camp Sherman. I am pretty certain no one in the group would have been able to summit without the guides. Nonetheless, it was a great accomplishment for all in my book. Assisted or not, they did climb the mountain, that is not a debatable statement. To say that those that climb with guided parties do not climb is at best a poor choice of words. To say to go on your own solo or lead a group requires more skill and adventure is statement you probably would not have received any debate from.

 

[crazy_t]

Guides are chiefly concerned with ensuring a client's safety on a climb; "success" whether that be making a summit or whatever else should be secondary. Most guides are invested in the developement of their clients' skill and experience base too, and as teachers can help their clients become aware of and avoid dangerous or time-costly situations that they might not otherwise recognize. Often a summit climb is the ideal venue for teaching specific lessons, ones which could not be practiced or intellectualized in another, less complete situation or venue.

 

For some, losing the enhanced experience of excitement, stress and risk that comes with making your own "big" decisions in the mountains is no loss. They have a full experience as a second on a rope with a safe leader. For others, it takes the fun out of it. But many of those who climb with a guide eventually lead on their own, with a good skill-set and smart decision making experience to refer to. Rather than an inspired but lucky, learn-as-you go approach that may be exciting but also risky (that was my original experience; I have since gone back and received training and instruction and built my skills up from a base focused on safety and technique) many prefer to gain their skills from a professional teacher who can help them get more efficiency out of their time and help them develop respect and experience in the mountains, which deserve and sometimes demand your best.

 

It's just that there is judgement and arrogance in your words, Jamin. And you clearly have a lot to learn (for example "Terrain is class 3.", and this will be on a winter outing where you may not even see the "class 3" through the 3' of snow sitting on it; the cruxes of this climb will likely have very little to do with "class 3"). The challenge of the mountains is gaining a relationship with those elements: snow, rock, ice; weather, avalanche hazard; and as well with partnerships in the mountains. Then coming into your ventures aware, respectful, and kicking ass when conditions are right. There's a satisfaction to the art of the practice, and the venue of the mountains is like no other. Humble yourself, lad! And why judge others? Just do what makes sense for you, and hold off on the potentially uninformed diss.

[crazy_t]

Earth n Sky, what's your plan for the Colorado trip with regard to schedule and sleeping elevations?

Edited January 10, 2007 by crazy_t

[nordicpunk]

Well I have to agree just a little bit with jamin, but only with respect to alpinists and certainly not to an alpine newbie. I think it is easy to forget how we felt on our first mountain. The only person that I would lose respect for hiring a guide to get up a mountain is myself. why?- because I love the experience of doing it myself and have,over the years, grown into that mindset (that we probably all share). That being said, I remember my first alpine climb as 1/2 fun, 1/2 terrifying. A guide would have been nice. Ranier (DC) is an easy climb, but I climbed a lot of other alpine stuff first and felt confident when leading my own group up Rainier. since this will be your first real alpine ascent, you SHOULD have a guide ENS. You will learn sooo much, hopefully feel more comfortable about the climbing, and have a wonderful time! Maybe when you get a couple mountains under your belt, you will enjoy a trip sans guide. Good Luck- Rainier is a great climb.

[ryland_moore]

I find it funny that Jamin, who has proven over and over that he has no skills for climbing anything on Mt. Rainier, is nothing more than a hiker who wants to climb but lacks the skills to do so, brings danger to anyone who ventures out with him, is giving advice to a newbie interested in actually learning and listening to someone (a guide) who knows more than they do!

 

Jamin, have you ever been guided on an alpine climb like Rainier? Have you ever climbed Rainier? I already know that you have not. You have no basis for your replies and are out of your element.

 

As for me, I used a guide twice. Once, I won a free guided trip in the Tetons from a benefit from AAC in Jackson and climbed Caveat Emptor with Teton Mountan Guides and had a blast! It was no different than finding a safe rope-gun on cc.com as a partner and we had an awesome day in Death Canyon.

 

The other trip was a guided trip up Chimborazo, in Ecuador when my friends left after our previous climbs. Super chill, great climb, good group, and was not treated like it was an all or nothing death march. I would not have soloed the route and becasue of its easy grade, it really didn't take any of the fun out of it, because the route finding or technical aspects of the climb were nil to begin with.

 

I have done my own trips up Denali and Orizaba and loved the aspect of that too. But when you are around 100s of people, what adventure are you really referring to Jamin? yes, on Orizaba, there was only one other party around us and we were the first on top, so it did feel cool to be the only ones on route, but it was nt technical to find out way in the least.

 

Rainier is not that challenging on easier routes, but you and your partners do need to be experienced in glacier travel, crevasse rescue, and route finding (depending on time of year). Weather and altitude will be your biggest issues. I would highly recommend going up the Emmons Glacier instead of DC as it is much more aesthetic, less people, same difficulty, and the largest glacier in the lower 48. Simply awesome!

 

Jamin, quit posting about things you don't know sh*t about.....or simply go back to whatever hiker forum you crawled out from.....

[Jamin]

Um, I actually have climbed Rainier. I did it in a day and a half actually, and I was sort of disappointed how easy it was.

 

I have plenty of rappelling experience. I actually have rappeled without a harness and biners before (something I will never repeat). I know how to belay, prusik, tie a water knot, double fishermans, munter hitch, figure eight. I also have pretty good self-arrest skills. I have successfully stopped myself on 50 degree+ snow slopes. I have used an ice axe ever since I started climbing. I wonder where you are getting the idea that I am a dumb hiker who doesn't know anything about climbing.

 

I learned climbing in a hard school. My brother and I used to do a few things that we should technically have used pro for. When Pup on the mountain referred to me as being dangerous, I just think he meant that I took some calculated risks. I felt completely comfortable taking them, and I was positive at the time that they would not have caused an accident. There will always be some risk involved in climbing; we at the most can minimize those risks. However, we are always taking some risk every time we are in the mountains.

 

By the way, I am experimenting with a technique of climbing solo. The idea is that I will top rope a pitch and then use a prusik attatched to my harness as pro in case I fall. Has anybody ever done something like this before? Is it safe?

 

 

Edited January 10, 2007 by Jamin

[Dechristo]

I wonder where you are getting the idea that I am a dumb hiker who doesn't know anything about climbing.

 

 

From your previous posts and the testimony of your previous climbing partners.

[Kraken]

NO. Dude...stop while you're still sort of ahead

[ryland_moore]

There will always be some risk involved in climbing; we at the most can minimize those risks.

 

Yeah, we can all minimize them by not going into the mountains or tying in with you. You are an idiot. Go get some real instruction. Also, please post every time you go to "climb" something so we will at least be spared of having to be in the same area as youy when you need a rescue.

 

Maybe the mods can establish a mounties and Jamin weekend location thread (aka Where's Jamin?) so we will know where not to go each weekend. It could start out each time with: Jamin will be attempting Liberty Ridge this weekend. Do not go to mt. Rainier, or Jamin will attempt the W. Ridge of prussik, do not go anywhere in the Stuart Range this weekend......

 

Jamin, please keep posting, because you are so off on your posts and what you perceive as the correct way to do things, that it truly is comical. I guess I will feel bad once you get hurt, but for now it is funny, because you truly have no clue. You are heavy on the ambition, but low on technical stuff. Get help (both mentally and with your climbing skills) by a qualifed professional and quit living a dream world that consists solely of yourself and whatever images you have of being a knowledgeavble and safe climber.

[ketch]

Jamin, I would try to reserve judgment as to your qualifications. But you make it awfull hard. I know many a person that can talk a good line. This is only talk until the same person comes up with another question like soloing with prussicks. I would be interested in hearing your "method" but most of the ones I am aware of are nearly as old as some of the rocks you are climbing. This would seem to also answer the original struggle as to if your just talking a good line.

 

Of course there is anonamous internet humor who can tell.

 

When in doubt refer to rule one as the cliche goes.

[Jamin]

Well, the idea I have is to top rope a pitch, and let the rope run down the pitch. I will attatch a prusik or two to the rope and then attatch the prusik loops to my harness. I will slide the prusiks up the rope as I climb. If I fall, I will fall on the prusiks, that is the idea anyways. Is this a safe technique? I would go with someone else who could belay me, but it is pretty hard to find a partner.

 

I have another question that you guys could answer for me. I have a few ice screws. After I place the screw and then take it out, the ice freezes inside the screw, which makes it useless. How do I prevent this from happening.

Edited January 10, 2007 by Jamin

[ryland_moore]

I cannot believe that this isn't a troll. Except from previous other posters who claim this guy is real and have gone out with him, this would have to be a joke!

 

I will give you some info though. Your first question is retarded. Prusiks are not meant to take falls directly onto the prussik. se a soloist or something else instead.

 

As for the ice screw, as soon as you remove it from the ice, clean it out by blowing through the opening to prevent freezing.

 

 

Edited January 10, 2007 by ryland_moore

[Jamin]

Will the prusik slide if it takes a fall or what will happen. Is there anything that will allow you have protection when climbing alone.

[crazy_t]

I've been thinking troll too. Have we been had?

[ketch]

Yes there are several devices. The Soloist as mentioned by Ryland is a good one. I personally use a modified Grigri when soloing which also works well. I would strongly recomend that you get a specific solo device as they also cover techniques. Solo climbing is not a beginner type thing definatley hook up with an experienced person to go over some of the methods.

 

As to the prussick idea. A prussick will usually hold. It will also usually slip some. To accomidate that most folk use two. Here is the real bear. If there is any slack in the system there is more force developed that the prussick must catch. When the prussick cinches and arrests par of this force is disapated as heat. Often one will find glazing or melting of the prussick after a unintended fall.

 

There are many considerations such as this that need to be worked through. Find some good partners or even to come around full circle, Go Hire A Guide.

[knelson]

I've been thinking troll too. Have we been had?

 

My teeth hurt. I think I bit too hard on that one. Have to admit he was subtle at first.

[chris]

Troll.

[Jamin]

Think what you want about me guys, that is your privilege. I sort of wish you guys would stop picking on me and go with me on a climb so I could learn some stuff. If I don't have a more knowledgeable partner to climb with, I will never learn the correct way to do things. Anyways, my participation in this thread is over. Good luck Earth N Sky. Rainier is one awesome mountain.