LandShark Posted December 19, 2006 Posted December 19, 2006 Is that really what a self-arrest is?! Wow you learn something new every day. The guy posited that Kelly James 1) summitted, 2) dislocated his shoulder trying to self-arrest on descent, 3) failed at self-arresting, and 4) then crawled into a cave after his partners fell to the glacier below. So I ask again, if he blows his shoulder in a failed self-arrest, why wouldn't he have taken the big ride with his partners.
Gary_Yngve Posted December 19, 2006 Posted December 19, 2006 There are a bunch of new phones on the market that do allow you to use the gps functionality. Some of these can do maps and directions for driving around town and stuff like that. I beleive most of them require a subscription fee for this service. AFAIK this technology is only in the E911 phones, with the user interface available in select models. Thanks, Jason. Here's a better link. http://support.vzw.com/faqs/VZ_Navigator/faq.html#item8 My cellphone (KRZR) supports it. I'm still not convinced though that my cellphone talks to satellites. I think the confusion is that we say "GPS coords" when we really mean "UTM coords." I'll see what more juice I can dig up.
Cantclimb Posted December 19, 2006 Posted December 19, 2006 I saw the Crocidile Hunter dislocate his shoulder on a show jumping from a tree....he had 2 people on camera crew stretch it back into socket as he yelled like all hell was breaking loose. Also....Indiana University had a ball player who use to dislocate shoulder a few times a year in games....they would take him to bench and relocate arm and he would enter game and play. I find it hard to believe that a dislocated arm is all that was wrong with him, unless he dislocated once he was seperated from his partners. If he had just one person to assist him his arm could be relocated into socket with the experience these guys had. God Bless em all. I still expect to see them guys walk off that mountain....but hope is fading quickly. From where the 2 anchors were found...if you fell or the wind blows you off.....where do you go and how far??
Gary_Yngve Posted December 19, 2006 Posted December 19, 2006 I'm pretty sure Verizon also has a neat little phone you can give to your kid and you can track your kid on the 'net' using the GPS technology. Yes, I heard of that too. But I still want a verifiable answer to how the phones do this. Some possibilities are: 1) triangulation from cell towers 2) triangulation from GPS satellites 3) superhero freezes time, finds you, and tells your phone where you are I think it would be really cool if my phone could tell me where I am when I have NO cell reception.
ClimbingPanther Posted December 19, 2006 Posted December 19, 2006 The recent news of a dislocated shoulder does likely indicate a self-arrest injury (this scenario has precedent in ANAM in a Rainier accident), although it is still a possible climbing injury if your arm is not extended overhead. A fall on to a well-stuck low ice tool placement with a pack on could also dislocate a shoulder. The injury itself does not tell exactly when or how it happened.
Gary_Yngve Posted December 19, 2006 Posted December 19, 2006 Landshark, self arrest consists of levering the pick of the axe into the snow while you are falling to slow you down and stop you. It needs to be done quickly and aggressively to have the greatest chances of success. If one person can't arrest, and the others are tied to them, then they may be able to catch the person's fall once the rope goes tight.
crazybrit Posted December 19, 2006 Posted December 19, 2006 kjlfaiejlifli wrote: To reconfirm Sean's statement about reaching the summit, it's important to note that in the unedited version of today's news conference, when discussing the photos taken by Kelly James' camera, he confirmed that they had all reached the summit...that the photos show this... Assuming that climbers shepherding an injured climber in rapidly worsening weather wouldn't stop to take pictures, does that mean that Kelly James was injured after they had reached the summit and began descending (apparently going a bit too far to the east, at least if they intended to go down Coooper Spur)? Or perhaps it means he was injured, but the injury, at least at that point, wasn't unduly severe. My understanding of this is: 1) The note they left in the rental car (not the one later found at HR Ranger Station) said they were planning on descending Southside. Cooper Spur only in case of emergency. 2) The person who originally reported them missing was waiting for them at Timberline and called it in when they didn't show. All of this points to South Side being the planned descent route. I've not seen the photos, have they been published (/me doubts it). I was working on the assumption that they summited late (due to disclocated shoulder), hit bad weather at the summit and were unable to find the descent route through the Pearly Gates. I can't imagine hanging around the summit (in any weather) if someone was injured. Doubly baffling if the pics end up showing good weather at the summit. I carry a GPS with me with waypoints for upper/lower end of the gates, but it's only of use if it's working. Otherwise in a whiteout it's experience + good compass skills (if you've got a good sense of where you are on the summit) I wonder if this being their first ascent of Hood (think it was) played a factor here. t
sk Posted December 19, 2006 Posted December 19, 2006 I saw the Crocidile Hunter dislocate his shoulder on a show jumping from a tree....he had 2 people on camera crew stretch it back into socket as he yelled like all hell was breaking loose. Also....Indiana University had a ball player who use to dislocate shoulder a few times a year in games....they would take him to bench and relocate arm and he would enter game and play. I find it hard to believe that a dislocated arm is all that was wrong with him, unless he dislocated once he was seperated from his partners. If he had just one person to assist him his arm could be relocated into socket with the experience these guys had. God Bless em all. I still expect to see them guys walk off that mountain....but hope is fading quickly. From where the 2 anchors were found...if you fell or the wind blows you off.....where do you go and how far?? i think mikey layton or bob might be able to shed some light on this. i roll my anckle all the time in essence it is week and i sprain it a lot not seriously, but because i do this often the tendons are lose. it hurts but not to bad and i can tape it and keep moving. if i roll the other one, it is a whole different story. the tendons there are not lose. and in my humble oppinion running arround on a flat field or court with some shoulder pain is one thing trying to climb a mountain in piss pour weather with a fresh injury... where you have to swing an ax or self arrest at any moment trying to carry a pack that is AT LEAST 30 lbs... whole different story buddy.
crazybrit Posted December 19, 2006 Posted December 19, 2006 Is that really what a self-arrest is?! Wow you learn something new every day. The guy posited that Kelly James 1) summitted, 2) dislocated his shoulder trying to self-arrest on descent, 3) failed at self-arresting, and 4) then crawled into a cave after his partners fell to the glacier below. So I ask again, if he blows his shoulder in a failed self-arrest, why wouldn't he have taken the big ride with his partners. This makes no sense to me. I'm still going with the conventional wisdom that all 3 dug the first cave (it was a viable cave AFAIK and thats hard to make with a dislocated shoulder). Some time later the missing two climbers left to get help. Interesting that the phone call he got out included no mention of being injured. Lots of things to speculate on here but non too useful. Got to assume he was injured before the cave was dug/entered.
LandShark Posted December 19, 2006 Posted December 19, 2006 Gary, while quoting from Freedom of the Hills, you miss my point entirely. I'll now have to eat you. Candygram.
Christy Posted December 19, 2006 Posted December 19, 2006 People, I beseech you, please exercise some judgment when you consider whether to post on a thread such as this one, and unless you are absolutely certain that you have something useful to add I'd encourage you to refrain, especially the non-climbers. This thread (and future threads of the same nature) would be much more useful if you would spend more time reading and left the posting to those who know what they are talking about. Ok, so to clarify, everybody with their helicopter operations intermediate can keep posting, everybody else is out of luck? I have a question. Do "Climbers" ever ask stupid questions. Evidently not. I came here yesterday to get insight on this from people who climb regularly, and have seen more hostility toward us bottom-dwelling non-climbers than I ever expected. The elitist attitude toward the newbies here has wasted a really good opportunity for the climbing community to prove all the nay-sayers wrong about the sport and those who love it.
The Hoy Posted December 19, 2006 Posted December 19, 2006 How would he dislocate his shoulder in a failed self arrest and yet not get pulled off the mountain with his buddies? This is a good point. Other than an inadequte set-up or failure of pro that initially held, I do not have a good response.
sk8ting fast Posted December 19, 2006 Posted December 19, 2006 How would he dislocate his shoulder in a failed self arrest and yet not get pulled off the mountain with his buddies? This is a good point. Other than an inadequte set-up or failure of pro that initially held, I do not have a good response. they did find a cut rope could this be why
Thinker Posted December 19, 2006 Posted December 19, 2006 All this being said, and using information gleaned from this site as well as from the media, here is an alternate scenario... Is it possible that all 3 climbers were well when they dug the snow cave on the east side of the mountain? Perhaps they could not find their way to the Gates because of the weather or fatigue. Perhaps they chose to dig-in for the night on the east side to be out of the wind. They faired okay through the night. They arose at some point as the weather worsened and thought they still had a window of opportunity to get off the mountain. The wind was too high to go over the top and down the south side. The three felt they still had a chance and so they did not call for help. Instead, wet from the condensation in the cave, and with a developing storm, they began to descend. They would be cold and shivering as the dampness on their bodies froze. They set up an anchor and began the process to rappel down. An accident occurred. Someone slipped. James attempted to stop the fall, but dislocated his shoulder while holding the fall. His attempt at preventing the fall was unsuccessful. With his last energy and with hypothermia developing, he craws back to the cave. Once inside, he uses the last of his energy to make a desperate call for help on his cell phone. If it is true that he made statements about Nikko flying and Brian gone for help in town, then perhaps with his condition worsening and with his mind unable to accept what he had seen, this was his mind trying to cope with the accident. This might explain why the other two never called, the dislocated shoulder, the strained comments made by James. The original poster who presented this theory did not mention "self arest". It is possible to dislocate a shoulder while doing a hip belay, boot axe belay, or any of the other common techniques we use when we're in a hurry. I can envision this chain of events: climber belaying/lowering one or two other climbers, a sudden loading of the rope, an impact of the belayer into the snow/ice surface, shoulder dislocation, letting go of the rope, climber(s) disappear down the descent route. Even more likely if one the other two climbers were injured, needing assistance on the descent.
sk Posted December 19, 2006 Posted December 19, 2006 People, I beseech you, please exercise some judgment when you consider whether to post on a thread such as this one, and unless you are absolutely certain that you have something useful to add I'd encourage you to refrain, especially the non-climbers. This thread (and future threads of the same nature) would be much more useful if you would spend more time reading and left the posting to those who know what they are talking about. Ok, so to clarify, everybody with their helicopter operations intermediate can keep posting, everybody else is out of luck? I have a question. Do "Climbers" ever ask stupid questions. Evidently not. I came here yesterday to get insight on this from people who climb regularly, and have seen more hostility toward us bottom-dwelling non-climbers than I ever expected. The elitist attitude toward the newbies here has wasted a really good opportunity for the climbing community to prove all the nay-sayers wrong about the sport and those who love it. quick to judge aren't you? why not join a news group to pass around half truths and gossip? this is a CLIMBERS BOARD this is not a news group. if you are interested in learning to actually climb or if you want to actually know about our sport i would be more than happy to teach you. many of the people who post here are well known climbers and authors and personalities. many of us know each other climb together hang out together and trust each other to share valuable information about life and death situations. again, I am a great teacher (of cragging let me say it again i have not climbed a mountain yet) i have taught a few climbers who have far surpassed me no in skill and strength.this is our home, and the men and women who are up there searching and the man we lost and the ones they are still searching for are OUR extended family, just because they climb. i am sorry if you do not understand. if you want to discuss this more i would be more than happy to do so in PM.
crazybrit Posted December 19, 2006 Posted December 19, 2006 How would he dislocate his shoulder in a failed self arrest and yet not get pulled off the mountain with his buddies? This is a good point. Other than an inadequte set-up or failure of pro that initially held, I do not have a good response. More importantly, why would he call out on his cell saying his two buddies had gone for help, if instead they'd all be involved in some self-arrest accident which only he had survived. This discussion is only useful if people don't throw out all of the "probable reality" previously established.
LandShark Posted December 19, 2006 Posted December 19, 2006 Thinker, yeah its possible, but then these guys would likely have seriously screwed up by having lots of slack in the line while belaying someone down in a rescue situation and/or not having the belayer tied into the rope when the belayer was tied into the anchor. If they had the system dialed in right, I think its pretty unlikely.
ICan'tClimb Posted December 19, 2006 Posted December 19, 2006 "many of the people who post here are well known climbers and authors and personalities." Huh??? Anyway, I am thrilled to be benefiting from your knowledge and expertise. Because I am not a personality, I have already been able to relay the point of view and expert opinions that I have learned here to other people who havent the time (or fortitude) to visit this forum. So, you see, even as a peon, I have some value. Because I am a nobody, other nobodies value my opinion and I can pass on your wisdom. Hmmmm.
Thinker Posted December 19, 2006 Posted December 19, 2006 I've been toying with what James really said, what his family member heard, and how everyone else has interpreted it. It would be helpful if the exact words could be recalled...and I'm sure SAR has gone over and over this. One possibility is Nikko went flying and Brian went down to help. "down" can sound much like "town"
Christy Posted December 19, 2006 Posted December 19, 2006 Thinker, that's why I asked earlier today if anyone could provide a news source for info on the phone call made Dec 10. Details are really sketchy, and interpretation is everything.
mcmedved Posted December 19, 2006 Posted December 19, 2006 (edited) Christy, I think most of the sociable climbers have left this post, not that I'm a social butterfly either. Edited December 19, 2006 by mcmedved
randita Posted December 19, 2006 Posted December 19, 2006 Thinker, that's why I asked earlier today if anyone could provide a news source for info on the phone call made Dec 10. Details are really sketchy, and interpretation is everything. http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/121606dnmetclimbers.11dd082b.html
bestbuddy Posted December 19, 2006 Posted December 19, 2006 Iain, The picture you posted labelled "Steps_Anchor": the steps to the rope are evident. Below the rope and under the next rock where the rope lies are those slide marks or footprints heading down the mountain? Where are the second set of prints going to the next rock? (I blew it up on my computer and some stuff gets clearer for me to see. I hope thats OK.) Also, how long would it take under the conditions that were on Mt Hood for the snow to cover the rope as it does in what appears to be the center part of the rope? I had my husband look at the blown up rope picture. He agrees that the position of the rope on the rock or the "Snap Back" of the rope could happen if there was weight on the rope when it was cut. Could you please comment? Thank you in advance. bestbuddy
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