Gary_Yngve Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 God bless the ode skoo. I definatly use them in new routes at times Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 a little 5.7+ on the salathe wall, el cap: the infamous "ear" pitch, the 5.10 on that route was so much easier than the 5.7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 I hear a lot of complaints down here in California about the ratings, especially the 3rd versus 4th versus 5th. As I understand it, back in the day of the Rock Climbing Section of the Sierra Club, classification was based on the protection used and not the technical difficulty. 4th class implied the use of a rope, and 5th class implied the use of protection to back up the climber. The running joke was: 2nd class - we didn't bring a rope 3rd class - we brought a rope but it never left our pack 4th class - we broke out the rope but left the pitons in the pack 5th class - we desperately dug the pitons and hammer out of the pack while the leader shook in his boots  In fact, old reports of the RCS referred to solo climbing as "third class-ing". For example, "Jules Eichorn third classed a new route on Cathedral Peak during this trip."  The consensus based model of grading a route by its technical difficulties appears to be a new concept that came about with the YDS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 4th class and 5th class are like 5th class and "6th class" (aid) Â Like if you aid up Cat Crack it is A1 and if you free it it is 5.6... and if you lead it but don't place any pro it would be equally valid to call it 4th class, and if you soloed it it would be equally valid to call it 3rd class. Â Four possible ratings for the same route, all equally valid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 Four possible ratings...my head is hurting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 Whoever wrote the guidebook to the Winds - maybe Steve Roper - defined the boundary between 2nd and 3rd class as the transition from something his dog could climb to something it couldn't. Expanding this methodology upwards might result in the transition from 3rd to 4th class as moving from something that someone with no arms could climb to something that they couldn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 the boundaries between classes - 3rd, 4th, and 5th - are boundaries of style, not of difficulty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 Not necessarily, G. Roper does describe 2nd, 3rd, and 4th class in terms of difficulty. 2nd class - like walking up an open stairwell on the outside of a building with a railing. 3rd class - like walking up that same stairwell without the railing. 4th class - like climbing an off-vertical ladder up that same building. If you fell, it would kill you, but it would be damn hard to fall unintentionally. 5th class - having to climb the building without the stairwell of the ladder. Â I remember that NOLS taught it as the consequences of an unprotected fall: 1st class - you might get some bruises and cuts. 2nd class - you will get some bruises and cuts. 3rd class - you will get some bruises and cuts, you might break something. 4th class - you will break something, you might get dead. 5th class - will kill you. Â I think that part of the problem was that prior to WWII there were many talented climbers making first ascents at a high technical level but with little protection and serious consequences. Because of the system of the day, things were graded then in a fashion that would be considered "sandbag" today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 those are pretty dumb attempts at defining Class 3, 4 and 5. You can die on a lot of 3rd class and there are 5th class slabs that can be climbed no-hands. the only definition that makes sense if you think it through is the stylistic one. Is it worth roping up for? Is it worth placing pro on? If the answer to both is yes then give it a technical rating, from 5.0 on up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mos_Chillin Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 Old skool is for Old Men to sit around and pat each other on the back about "how it was back in the day" (maybe some of them were sandbagging their buddies, d'ya think?) Not that there's anything wrong with that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckiely Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 A friend of mine defined 4th class as something he would not want to climb down, but would prefer to rap. Makes sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 I used to say 4th class was anything I didn't need to put rock shoes on for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckiely Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 Which could be 5.7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 Well ya, 5.7 and 4th class often cxould be the same thing especially in the alpine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 I just got into a heated debate with a client from Colorado over whether I should have placed gear on a 4th class pitch. The pitch features 30 solid meters of 4th class over a 60m+ drop. I normally climb it in boots and unprotected, and the only reason I would personally carry a rope is to get down faster via the rappels. She claimed that California grades were routinely sandbagged, and that this was a solid 5th class pitch. I disagree. A 4th class move 2 meters off the ground is still a 4th class move 200m off the ground. Like wise, elevation off the ground doesn't effect whether a move or pitch is 5.6 or 5.15a, does it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 I just got into a heated debate with a client from Colorado over whether I should have placed gear on a 4th class pitch. The pitch features 30 solid meters of 4th class over a 60m+ drop. I normally climb it in boots and unprotected, and the only reason I would personally carry a rope is to get down faster via the rappels. She claimed that California grades were routinely sandbagged, and that this was a solid 5th class pitch. I disagree. A 4th class move 2 meters off the ground is still a 4th class move 200m off the ground. Like wise, elevation off the ground doesn't effect whether a move or pitch is 5.6 or 5.15a, does it? Â There's no such thing as a "4th class move"... only a "4th class pitch". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 I just got into a heated debate with a client from Colorado over whether I should have placed gear on a 4th class pitch. Â So much for your tip. My response would have been I'm really sorry, you were just looking so strong I felt we could run it out a bit. And then make her a sandwich. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 There's no such thing as a "4th class move"... only a "4th class pitch". Â Your bitch is a 2nd-class pitch. Â Yo mama is the obvious gully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mos_Chillin Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 Pope's medication must be working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 What do you guys mean by "sandbagging"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mos_Chillin Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 The term is derived from the climbing feeling like you have sandbags tied to your waist, e.g. harder than it should be for the grade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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