tying two ropes for a rap

[gooniegoogoo]

not sure if I should post this on this board or the rock climb board.

I was taught to use a double fisherman's knot to tie two ropes together for a rap. Now I've seen folks use a figure eight and a overhand knot ( I believe that's what it's called). What do you guys use and why? Does it matter? Pros and cons of each?

[catbirdseat]

I use a double fisherman if I'm on ice or snow or a really clean rock face where I am quite sure the knot is unlikely to hang up on something, otherwise, I'll use an overhand knot (EDK).

[mattp]

If you run a couple of searches, you'll find a bunch of discussion on this board.

 

I like the Euro Death Knot, but some prefer the security of the double fisherman.

 

 

This knot, with a "flat" profile on one side, allows you to pull the rope through bushes and over edges easier. You gotta tie it tightly, "dress" it properly, and use generous tails.

[matt_warfield]

If you search you will find extensive discussion on this site with good info. Double fishermans is hard to untie and has a tendency to snag on things easily. The overhand is a good option that doesn't easily catch on things but should be backed up and tied with long tails.

 

(Okay, mattp beat me to it)

Edited July 20, 2006 by matt_warfield

[mattp]

Exept that I would NOT tie a back up for the Euro Death knot. Adding a back up will increase the chances of getting it stuck, and reduce the advantage.

 

And note: it is not the same as an overhand (if you tie the overhand "correctly" as a follow-through knot).

 

The overhand is probably harder to untie than the double fisherman's, not as secure, and not much easier to pull over an edge.

[matt_warfield]

The EDK can be backed up with another EDK inside the first one to retain the low profile, still with long tails.

 

I agree that it shouldn't be called overhand to differentiate it from a follow through overhand shown above but I sure wish it had a good name that didn't have "death" in it!

Edited July 20, 2006 by matt_warfield

[mattp]

Interesting. Do you have a picture of that?

[matt_warfield]

I have no picture, but the nested knots have more security and keep sticking up in the air for low profile next to the rock. Try it at home.....

 

(I have an AMGA guide friend who uses this setup.)

[Alpinfox]

I don't think the "double-overhand" discussed on THIS WEB PAGE is quite the same thing as what Matt is talking about, but it's still an interesting read.

 

For rappelling, I use the EDK, which I refer to as an "overhand" knot. The "overhand reverse followthrough" thing that people do to join two ends of webbing I refer to as a "water knot".

 

I wonder if Matt is talking about this knot?:

That knot (which I call the double overhand) is what I use as a stopper knot in the end of a rappel rope. I also use it for tying the ends of my rope to the little loops on my rope bag/tarp.

 

EDIT: HERE is another good link with rappel knot info

Edited July 20, 2006 by Alpinfox

[mattp]

Good link, Mr. Fox. And I see that you and Matt are joined by others in calling the EDK an "overhand knot."

[matt_warfield]

No, what I am talking about is starting with mattp's picture, but doing another "overhand" that will sit inside (i.e. away from the tails) of the first knot. Since it is an "overhand", it is easy to tie the second and nest it next to the first knot. Like many knots, however, it is somewhat difficult to precisely describe.

 

Try it and see! I'll bet that the principal advantage is to reduce the turning over properties of the EDK under high loads.

[matt_warfield]

Good link, Mr. Fox. And I see that you and Matt are joined by others in calling the EDK an "overhand knot."

 

I checked the link and yes the double overhand is what I'm talking out and the figures confirm its advantages.

 

I have seen the knot where the tails end up in separate directions called an overhand follow through whereas the knot in question is an overhand, with the tails together. But with the you say tomato and I say tomato flavor of the climbing community, I doubt if we'll be able to mandate that! We will however, be able to use the knot of our choice for many safe secure rappels. And mine shall be the double overhand.

Edited July 20, 2006 by matt_warfield

[erden]

Interesting. Do you have a picture of that?

 

[Otto]

I learned it from Mark_L a few years ago, and he called it a Skull knot. No "death" in that!

[Alpinfox]

 

Yeah, that is just two overhand knots in series.

 

The idea is that the second knot keeps the first from rolling. I've done that a few times, but I generally just do the single overhand, or "EDK", or "Happy Love Smiley Beautiful Life Knot" (if I'm with my girlfriend).

[catbirdseat]

This knot is safe, but has no advantages over the double fisherman other than being a little easier to untie.

This knot is not safe and should never be used.

[dmuja]

yes yes, I stay away from fig 8 anything for tying two ropes.

 

But what do you use for say, tying a 9.8mm to a 6mm?

[russ]

Good link, Mr. Fox. And I see that you and Matt are joined by others in calling the EDK an "overhand knot."

 

I was glancing through John Long's book on anchors and I'm pretty sure he also refers to this knot as "overhand". There are several anchor/knot books on the market - it would be interesting to see if they are consistant.

 

As a side comment - a couple of weeks ago on Condorphamine I was planning to try to get my partner comfortable with the EDK/overhand by tying it and having her watch the knot as I rappel down. When the accident happened and I reached the stranded climber, the first comment she made when I started to set up the rappel was "what knot are you going to use?". I quickly abandoned any thought of the EDK and responded with "triple fisherman" - that reassured her enough to continue.

 

It made me think it through a little more - unless there is obvious, eminent danger of a knot getting stuck, I'm going to go with knot that reassures everyone involved in the rappel. Why add any more strain to the danger of rappeling?

[mattp]

Get your rope stuck a couple of times and you may revisit that conclusion but I understand the idea.

[catbirdseat]

I was glancing through John Long's book on anchors and I'm pretty sure he also refers to this knot as "overhand". There are several anchor/knot books on the market - it would be interesting to see if they are consistant.

Speaking of which, John Long's new book should be out any time now. I believe this is the one.

[sobo]

Get your rope stuck a couple of times and you may revisit that conclusion but I understand the idea.

 

matt,

 

I also understand and can appreciate russ's thought process, but I just don't get the extremism of the clan that embraces the EDK with such ferocity. I've been climbing for over 20 years, and using the DF exclusively for raps, and only once that I can recall in that time did I ever get something stuck enough that I had to ascend to retrieve the rope. And in all that time, I have never had much trouble untying the knot at the end of the day's raps. And that includes rapping in the rain, while ice climbing, and wet snow. So I just don't get all the plaudits surrounding the EDK.

 

Frozen rap knots are another matter, though...

[Alpinfox]

20 years X 25 outings/year X 3 double-rope rappels/outing X 2 minutes of extra time due to DF vs EDK use/rappel = 3000 minutes =

 

50 hours of WASTED TIME

 

OMG!

[mattp]

Sobo, you may be more skilled at pulling ropes, or perhaps don't do as much rapping on broken rock as I do. And I guess you must also have a greater fear of the EDK than I do. I agree that a stuck rope is a rare occurence (the last time for me was several years ago), but it can be a major problem and I am comfortable with the EDK.

 

If a partner prefers something else, I'll use something else. If not, I'll opt for the EDK most of the time.

[ivan]

i prefer to make my rapping experience a far more artistic one and thus the below

[sobo]

20 years X 25 outings/year X 3 double-rope rappels/outing X 2 minutes of extra time due to DF vs EDK use/rappel = 3000 minutes =

 

50 hours of WASTED TIME

 

OMG!

 

Pax,

You're assuming that I untie the doubled rope at each rap station. Eu contraire, mon ami, for I leave the knot together and feed through the anchor during the pull-down for the next rap. Ergo, according to your calculations, it's only 1,000 minutes of wasted time over 20 years! That's less time than I've wasted on this board in 5 years!