Feelings of Guilt

[freeclimb9]

A non-insignificant part of any climb is a flip of a coin, roll of the dice, lady luck, . . . "Objective" danger has taken out a lot of compentent people in climbing as in other pursuits.

BTW, guilt is an emotion put on you by others. Remorse is self-created.

[RedMonk]

i may be a kid.... but i know enough about this world that people today blame someone else for everything....no-one is willing to take responsibility for their actions....cell phones make that even more probable....jsut like the addage "if you bring your bivy gear, youare gonna use it," so too if you bring a cell phone...you will be more willing to try more committing things knowing that you can "just call the rangers" calling me a kid doesn't erase my opionion....age may bring wisodom...but i dont think i am entirely void of it and deserve my own opinion....i listened to yours....many times....

[jhamaker]

Note:

 

Baker party had frs (range usualy less than 2 mi) successfuly transmitted but not rec'd over a dist of 60mi

Rainier party had no radio/phone

Hood party had a cell phone

 

Shit happens, we all do what we, personaly, feel is necessary to protect us from it.

 

------------

Wisdom comes from experience, experience comes from making mistakes. (paraphrase unkown)

[RedMonk]

yes we must protect ourselves.... but not at the cost of unecessarily bringing in rangers.... this must be a rare occurence and it is seeming more and more common to just hop on the phone to get rescued...people just feel that they are invincible today.... they think of climbign as just another "xtreme sport" but it is not....people die all the time because they are not prepared or they just succumb to the risks.... even those that are prepared can die.... but we must 1st!!! be prepared to tackle anything that is probable.....and then only can we expect to have the rigth to call in a rescue....if we are haphazardly going into the mountains....it is not right to expect others to have to haul our unprepared asses off the mountain...i have not problem with cell phones and the like.... but i feel that there is a real danger that they can be crutches and numb the sense of danger.... i feel that carrying a cell phone has the capacity to be even more dangerous in that people may try more and more dangerous things because they know that help may just be 7 numbers away....just my two cents...it amkes sense to me....mabe i'm just a kid spouting...but i think that first and foremost is a level of preparedness and competence prior to venturing into the wilderness....

[To_The_Top]

I have one of those Motorola radios that was instumental in a rescue I was involved with, and once out of treeline we picked up many surrounding conversations about what to bring to the BBQ, where who was meeting who, in our instance it was non life threatening and someone got ahold of the rangers and the rangers called us. It was a success as far as the rangers helping us. Sorry for the loss to anyone involved on either peak. Ps I never rope up for the Bshrund on Hood and end run it. I would think on Rainier it would work there too. One thing to point out is the Rainier group climbed the route, and it was weather that got them, not inability to climb the route.

TTT

[RedMonk]

i dont think that radios and cell phones are bad...i just think that it must be understood that ability comes first and foresmost....no cell phone in teh world will save you if you are caught on the summit and didn't read the weather correctly.... people dont understand this...and that is what i am pointing out.... i dont doubt that this technology is usefull.... but know your stuff....

[To_The_Top]

quote:

---

Originally posted by RedMonk:

i dont think that radios and cell phones are bad...i just think that it must be understood that ability comes first and foresmost....no cell phone in teh world will save you if you are caught on the summit and didn't read the weather correctly.... people dont understand this...and that is what i am pointing out.... i dont doubt that this technology is usefull.... but know your stuff....

---

I agree that the best way to handle this is beforehand reading weather and avi forcasts as opposed to reacting to the situation after it happens, which may be too late.

 

For us it was an experimental use of radios, and plus a cell phone can also be used (in a friends case) to tell others that you are running late, dont send help. There is another side to the whole "come get me" attitude.

Many uses for this medium, not just help me out.

TTT

 

[ 05-31-2002, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: To The Top ]

[Norman_Clyde]

jhamaker, I think the quotation is "Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment." But I don't know who said it.

RedMonk, ultimate self-reliance is nice in theory, but it's not how a civilized society works. Whether you desire it or not, if society at large thinks you are in danger and need rescue, rescue will come to you whether you ask for it or not-- even if that rescue shatters the image you had of your own self-reliance. I imagine that a lot of us seek out the mountains because we feel coddled and softened by the trappings of civilization. I myself don't think I can be the person I ought to be unless I frequently test my own self-reliance in real life situations, and I thank God that wilderness still exists that I can reach and explore. I honestly believe that I would be more at home at a much more primitive period of human history, way way before cell phones. But wishing doesn't make it so.

If you really want to be fully accountable for your own actions, then only climb solo, and never tell anyone where you are going. Don't even tell anyone you've gone climbing-- just vanish, without a trace, for days at a time. What would happen if you tried this? For sure, this action would minimize the chance that meddlesome rescuers will come to your aid. But your family would come looking for you anyway; they would call the cops, who would scour the state for any trace of you.

It's the bonds of society, not cell phones, that form a lifeline between civilization and wilderness-- and those bonds are there for your sake, like it or not.

[RedMonk]

i do do that norman(solo).... i dont do anything that i dont feel comfortable on....but i do go out for climbs.... (sometimes out of lack of a partner) but mostly to get away from it all....as i have said before 5 or 6 times.... i dont think that they (cell phones/ radios) are a bad idea....just that the metality that often comes with them can be derogatory....

 

[ 05-31-2002, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: RedMonk ]

[joekania]

Steve, feel no shame in surviving your ascent- when it's someone's time to die, their feet will lead them there. One man could have done little to save three. It is to our great benefit that the one survivor was able to tell his story that even able climbers find their time shortened in their finest moments. My condolences on the loss of your daughter, I hope to never experience such pain. And thank you for the trip report, I am forwarding it to climbing and non-climbing friends alike along with news stories to show them that there are different sides to the story.

 

Redmonk- you have taken a beating on your self-sufficiency stand and hopefully it has you rethinking your opinion. Be considerate of the misfortunes of others and the lessons they have taken from them, you can learn much and pay little for the knowledge. You are young and strong and death is far from your thoughts, but there are things you cannot get around. The truth is people care about you and would rather you exhibited the good sense to ask for help (and had the ability to ask for it) when a situation went beyond your control, than wait ten or twenty years for a glacier to spit your body out at the ablation zone. The message of the last few days should be to consider them as well as ourselves, because we would be nothing without them.

[RedMonk]

this is rather comical....none of you have been able to grasp what i have been saying....i AM NOT saying that call phones are bad to take....but they can create a situation where someone would try something they would not normally try without one because of a mindset that is induced by having help at the touch of a button..... i have never neglected to take a cell phone on ranier or any other highly glaciated peak....i never said that no-one should carry cell phones....if i did i didn't mean it....but i just said that they can creat the mindset where people may get into trouble more often knowing that there is a greater probablility of being saved....i was involved in a rescue where i was the middle ropeman and the leader fell into a crevasse....this happened a month ago and the snow was too deep to extract the leader as the rope would cut into the lip of the overhanging crevasse (even though we had prepared it...the axe itself was going deeper and deeper). we had only one rope....so we had to anchor him off and go down to get another rope from muir....we had a cell phone...but it was in the leader's pack and completely inaccessible....this is a realistic situation and if feel that the leader went into the crevasse because of this "cell phone security mentality"....he should have had a level head IN CONJUNCTION to his cell phone....but instead the cell phone numbed his sense of danger and we ended up gettin back at muir at 12 at night..... (dont try and give me rescue tips for the situation cause without another rope it would have been impossible) hopefully that clears up my position.... geesh

[Noway]

Hey Red Monk, most climbers realize that carrying a cell phone in your pack doesn't improve your ability and decrease judgement.

By your logic, cell phones create unresponsible outdoor morons, well maybe .1%.

 

[ 06-01-2002, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: Noway ]

[Norman_Clyde]

RedMonk, if I were sitting across a table from you instead of communicating via this silly computer, I think we would find we agree with one another much more than disagree. I agree 100 per cent with your 5/31 11:43 pm post (I'd quote it but I'm still slow on how to do that.)

I think this dialogue is helpful for us all. It seems to be helping me cope with the apprehension that grips me whenever people die in the mountains. I'm happy for all of you who have the chance to be out there on this beautiful day, I'm happy I have next weekend set aside to climb, and I'm happy to be spending this weekend with my family, that we're all together and safe. (Plus, I'm close to finishing my back yard climbing wall!)

[nolanr]

Just my $.02 or so. Red Monk, granted some people are lulled into a false sense of security carrying cell phones or radios and might try routes beyond their capabilities. I think this is probably a minority of climbers. Regarding my friends on Baker, THEY DID NOT CALL IN A RESCUE. The rescue operation got underway without their knowledge after they had made radio contact. About half-a-dozen different SAR outfits showed up, they all wanted to be there and help in any way they could. My friends were not selfishly burdening society. In fact the rescuers were TOTALLY STOKED that this one was in fact a rescue, not a body recovery. They were taking pictures of my buddies and everything. Also, someone else has mentioned it, but totally competent, talented, and fit climbers can and do get into trouble. It may be momentary poor judgement, but sometimes it is due to situations totally beyond their control. Objective dangers exist and sometimes shit happens even when you are being totally cautious and aware of your surroundings. I ususally carry a cell phone w/ me, I have it turned off so people can't call me. It's there for my emergency use. I've never needed to use it. It doesn't in any way make me feel invincible or give me free license to take ridiculous chances. You're obviously entitled to your opinion and I'm even agreeing w/ it to a limited degree, but I think you're overstating the effect that modern communication devices have on the mentality of climbers. OK, that was probably more than $.02, but I'm done now.

[Figger_Eight]

Red Monk, I think you're preaching to the choir, but when you make statements like:

quote:

---

the main problem today is that poeple do not accept responsibility for their actions

---

Really? Which people? Everyone? People on this discussion board?

and

quote:

---

yet we rely on rescues to get us out of uor self inflicted predicaments

---

Yes, sometimes we do. It's a self inflicted predicament because we decided to get out of bed and go climbing. You can minimize risk, but you can't eliminate it. If you can't eliminate it, there's always the chance of something going wrong.

and

quote:

---

no-one is willing to take responsibility for their actions....cell phones make that even more probable

---

No one? The people on Baker/Hood/Rainier?

 

I agree with you about self-reliance and understand you have nothing against cell phones, but like my mom used to say, "It's not what you said, but how you said it."

 

[ 06-01-2002, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: Figger Eight ]

[sobo]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Norman Clyde:

jhamaker, I think the quotation is "Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment." But I don't know who said it.

---

Norman,

I'm not sure who said it either, but I think it goes something like, "Experience is the result of exercising good judgement. Good judgment is the result of surviving bad judgement."

 

TG,

First, I extend my sympathies to you and your family on the loss of your daughter. In the same breath, I congratulate you on your completion of a fine route in bad weather. And lastly, I implore you to understand that there was really nothing you should/could have done for the LR party (even if you knew about them, which you obviuosly didn't). Your first concern was for your own safety and return, and concomitant with that concern was a safe return to your family.

 

Well done, and Cheers!

...sobo

 

[ 06-01-2002, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: sobo ]

[Anna]

quote:

---

Originally posted by RedMonk:

....just that the metality that often comes with them can be derogatory....

---

YES....cell phones can be instrumental but only as a last resort. If you climb responsibly you won't ever need to use it (unless to save another party, of course) LEARN TO READ AND STUDY THE WEATHER AND THE GOOD OLD MAP/COMPASS, hell, study the mountain itself...if you show respect, respect you will get. I think those on Rainier should have done the D.C. route first TG, don't blame yourself...as for the Hood folks, that is a damn shame.

[RedMonk]

thank you anna.... i do not know why many of you have taken this thread so personally.... what have i said that has made this topic so engaging? sorry figure eight.... when i said "everyone" it was incorrect terminology....it was a genralization and i am sorry....but picking on my grammar isn't goin to make my opinion go away.... jsut because i just got a C- in my university english class (just got the report card today) doesn't mean i have nothing relevant to say.... i think many of you are putting words into my mouth and a few of you (anna and norman) have actually read my posts without clicking "reply" assuming that i hate technology or am some pseudo-macho punk kid.... sorry if a have offended you in some way (i dont know how i could have). had a good day of climbing....hope you all had one too.... take care and be safe (and bring a cell phone) take it easy lads

[Anna]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Norman Clyde:

I thank God that wilderness still exists that I can reach and explore. I honestly believe that I would be more at home at a much more primitive period of human history, way

way

before cell phones. But wishing doesn't make it so.

---

I LOVE YOU NORMAN...

[Guest]

the only feeling of guilt is with the party causing the accident. you know, in the mountains shit happens. people have to learn to accept it. and when shit is happening you deal with it. cell phones made it way to convinient to call for help. people consider it an option now. the truth is that if you are self sufficient you can deal with the shit that's in your face. and if climbers don't get it they should stay home or at their local gym drinking their double soy latte'.

[joekania]

Bob, get over yourself. People die in the mountains, experienced climbers on easy routes, newbies on hard ones, just like you've been saying all along. Why do you care to post about it? You've already said you want more people to die, so you don't care about lives, or the fact that cell phones may save lives. And no one is completely self-sufficient. Think about whoever waited for your newbie bumbling ass to get up a route when you started. You sure aren't reciprocating by showing patience in return. And you are doing nothing to advance the causes of the climbing community, but you are definitely promoting dissension among the ranks. So pack it up and move on, brother.

[RedMonk]

joekannia- there is a major problem with your momparison of our boy scrapin up a top roped 5.5 and an assault on Lib. ridge.... if you do liberty ridge....it can be assumed that you are a fairly capable mountaineer ( at least you should be).... joe was just learnin....there definitly comes a time when you start being more and more self sufficient...and if you are taking on liberty ridge (or especially ptarmigan) you should have a very high level of preparedness.... joe might have taken the no cellphone thing a little too far....but the pont he raises is valid.... we all learn sometime...but when you tae on an alpine route liek lib. ridge or something harder and more comitting, you must have an extremely high level of self-suffieciency....if you dont....you should take the D.C. escalator like everyone else.....

[Figger_Eight]

quote:

---

but picking on my grammar isn't goin to make my opinion go away

---

Nope it won't, and in fact it's the same opinion that we all share. Cheers

[RedMonk]

thanks mate see ya in da woods!

[Guest]

oh yea joe. go joe go! noone is self-sufficient? maybe you're not but i am. and nobody was dragging my ass up the routes when i was learning. i was climbing routes at MY level with partners of the same ability. that's why i know what i am talking about and you don't. and the reason i did this post was that he should not feel any guilt. he was there, so what? he is not responsible for other people. or maybe you are one of these faders who wants to be taken care off in the mountains. guess what- you are giving "polish" climbing community bad rap.